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CSM7 Dec Summit Topics and Minutes status

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Frying Doom
#81 - 2012-12-28 09:04:17 UTC
Two step wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

So what you are saying is that with 6 months of talks with Devs on skype you had no idea about their thoughts on Null. And that CCP must suddenly be listening as you came up with almost identical ideas

Which leads to the next question. Has Dr.Eyjog seen these proposals and what does he think?

I am aware of the old adage of ask 2 economists to answer a question and you will get 5 answers but his thoughts would be very valuable, actually more valuable than anyone in the CSM or at CCPs thoughts.


Firstly, not all devs are on Skype with us. Secondly, face to face communications is very important, and can communicate a lot more and of a much higher quality than semi-realtime chat. Thirdly, why on earth would you conclude we had no idea what they thought about nullsec from what Hans said?

On Dr. Eyoj, running stuff like new expansion plans past him is for CCP to do internally. My opinion is that they don't often consult him before they do stuff, but you would have to ask him about that.

I am also very confused why on Earth you think an economist would be good at game design. I had a very interesting exchange with him during the economy session that I think should shed some light on what the differences between RL econ and EVE econ are. I will make sure it is in the minutes, and I am sure we can have a fascinating thread about it on here afterwards.

An economist is not good at game design but one would hope they are good at economics.

And any alteration to the ore distribution or manufacturing within Null of Hi-sec will have very economic effects. So while Dr. Eyoj may not know programming he does seem to have a very good grasp of the EvE economy

And we are talking about economics.

But then apparently nothing substantial has been discussed in the last months other than the how the expansions should be layered. Not that this by its self is not important.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#82 - 2012-12-28 09:06:45 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
So I must have misinterpreted this.

So what your saying is that even though your ideas for Null in the template document that was only about how to build an expansion and not to be in any way shape or form for the content of those examples, even though one was marked Critical Issue: 0.0 and Sovereignty and even though you have stated that CCPs ideas are remarkably similar, there is in fact no "CCP's proposal for Null".

And I wonder why I am getting confused here.


I've said our document was primarily about how to build an expansion. In that respect, CCP's approach they shared with us at the summit turned out to reflect what we had given them. Not regarding 0.0 specifics, but regarding expansion building in general.

I did not say the 0.0-related content in the examples wasn't of interest to the CSM, however. It is. I only said there was no reason to take it as the final word on the issue, and reminded you that the primary purpose of the document was never about telling CCP how to fix 0.0 exactly. It was simply a starting point for discussion.

Once again, CCP has not responded with any proposals yet of their own regarding the upcoming expansions, because that is a matter to be dealt with in January. We did however have a productive pair of sessions on 0.0 at the Summit, the contents of which will be documented in the minutes.

Are we clear now? Straight

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Frying Doom
#83 - 2012-12-28 10:05:53 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
So I must have misinterpreted this.

So what your saying is that even though your ideas for Null in the template document that was only about how to build an expansion and not to be in any way shape or form for the content of those examples, even though one was marked Critical Issue: 0.0 and Sovereignty and even though you have stated that CCPs ideas are remarkably similar, there is in fact no "CCP's proposal for Null".

And I wonder why I am getting confused here.


I've said our document was primarily about how to build an expansion. In that respect, CCP's approach they shared with us at the summit turned out to reflect what we had given them. Not regarding 0.0 specifics, but regarding expansion building in general.

I did not say the 0.0-related content in the examples wasn't of interest to the CSM, however. It is. I only said there was no reason to take it as the final word on the issue, and reminded you that the primary purpose of the document was never about telling CCP how to fix 0.0 exactly. It was simply a starting point for discussion.

Once again, CCP has not responded with any proposals yet of their own regarding the upcoming expansions, because that is a matter to be dealt with in January. We did however have a productive pair of sessions on 0.0 at the Summit, the contents of which will be documented in the minutes.

Are we clear now? Straight

As I said I look forward to the minutes with more and more want

Ok so simple question then is the details noted in that document on Null, the CSMs perspective of what should be done to fix it? Or more specifically the creators of that documents beliefs? As I personally do not start a discussion with a point of view other than that I believe to be correct.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2012-12-28 12:55:41 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Are we clear now? Straight


Spoiler Alert: This will never happen.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Frying Doom
#85 - 2012-12-28 13:24:40 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Are we clear now? Straight


Spoiler Alert: This will never happen.

Well maybe you can make it nice and clear for me as to what the CSM or more specifically the authors of that document believe should happen in Null.

Honestly its not that hard a question

Where do the individual members stand as to what should be done with Null sec?

Is it what they wrote or not?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2012-12-28 13:30:35 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
But that still leaves the fact that CCPs concept of Null is apparently what CCP is proposing so I must once again ask Has Dr.Eyjog seen CCPs proposal for Null and what does he think?

No, they snuck the plans past the man's desk and consulted an economic Ouija board instead

T-H-E-R-E-I-S-N-O-N-E-E-D-T-O-A-D-D-R-E-S-S-T-E-C-H-N-E-T-I-U-M-GOOD BYE

Shocked the spirits speak
Frying Doom
#87 - 2012-12-28 13:41:47 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
But that still leaves the fact that CCPs concept of Null is apparently what CCP is proposing so I must once again ask Has Dr.Eyjog seen CCPs proposal for Null and what does he think?

No, they snuck the plans past the man's desk and consulted an economic Ouija board instead

T-H-E-R-E-I-S-N-O-N-E-E-D-T-O-A-D-D-R-E-S-S-T-E-C-H-N-E-T-I-U-M-GOOD BYE

Shocked the spirits speak

That thinking is also showing about as much life as the spirit.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#88 - 2012-12-28 13:56:13 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
But that still leaves the fact that CCPs concept of Null is apparently what CCP is proposing so I must once again ask Has Dr.Eyjog seen CCPs proposal for Null and what does he think?

No, they snuck the plans past the man's desk and consulted an economic Ouija board instead

T-H-E-R-E-I-S-N-O-N-E-E-D-T-O-A-D-D-R-E-S-S-T-E-C-H-N-E-T-I-U-M-GOOD BYE

Shocked the spirits speak

That thinking is also showing about as much life as the spirit.



Time to cash in some of our forum posting LP for a faction sense of humour booster

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#89 - 2012-12-28 14:20:24 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Spoiler Alert: This will never happen.


You've forgotten about what a hopeless optimist I can be so easily? Nah, I kid, I kid. I really just enjoy the challenge of trying to reason with a brick. Keeps me sharp, like a grindstone.

Frying Doom wrote:
Well maybe you can make it nice and clear for me as to what the CSM or more specifically the authors of that document believe should happen in Null.

Honestly its not that hard a question


It's not that hard a question, but you've chosen to be deliberately obtuse and ask everything BUT that question. Lol

Frying Doom wrote:
Where do the individual members stand as to what should be done with Null sec?


It's in the minutes, bro.

Frying Doom wrote:
Is it what they wrote or not?


Can you identify and cite the portion of the document that says, "This is what each of the individual CSM members believe about 0.0" If not, you've answered your own question. Try it! It'll be a good exercise for you. Twisted

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Frying Doom
#90 - 2012-12-28 14:56:54 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:


Frying Doom wrote:
Is it what they wrote or not?


Can you identify and cite the portion of the document that says, "This is what each of the individual CSM members believe about 0.0" If not, you've answered your own question. Try it! It'll be a good exercise for you. Twisted

Actually I believe it was Seleene that said the document was unanimously supported by the CSM, which later turned into the other members did not actively complain.

But anyway as i have said I look forward to the minutes as you have just stated that each individual members stance as to Null alterations are in there.

Hopefully they will be better thought out than the last template not a real document document, starting discussion point document that would just leave Hi-sec a smoking hole.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#91 - 2012-12-28 15:54:07 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Hopefully they will be better thought out than the last template not a real document document, starting discussion point document that would just leave Hi-sec a smoking hole.


That's a really cute way of saying "Only those of you that insisted that high-sec not be touched in the slightest way in terms of safety or income shall be raptured away and spared 7 years of tribulation and wrath at the hands of Frying Doom. For I shall take all reasonable discussion about income spectrum and blow it up into a hyperbolic rant about how the CSM is out to destroy everyone's game and serves only their own corrupt interests!" Twisted

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Anne-Louise Chasse
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2012-12-28 16:36:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Anne-Louise Chasse
With the mess you do about what CCP itself is working on it, almost makes you want to thank that all you spend WiS/Avatars oblivious.Ugh

I may be missing out with the translation of your last posts, but I would say that the details of the last meeting are about CCP actually does not know what to do in the next expansion??QuestionAttentionShocked

Is that it?
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#93 - 2012-12-28 17:33:06 UTC
Anne-Louise Chasse wrote:
I may be missing out with the translation of your last posts, but I would say that the details of the last meeting are about CCP actually does not know what to do in the next expansion??QuestionAttentionShocked



CCP has a general idea of some of the things they think they can produce as part of the next expansion, but the feature set is not locked down yet. This isn't because they aren't working on designs and prototypes of things that COULD go into the expansion, but because they don't want to make the final decision without including the CSM (and thus the community as well) as part of that process.

So in this case, CCP not knowing exactly what is going into the next expansion is a GREAT thing. Unlike all the other expansions, where they decide for us, this time around they want to include us as part of the release planning. I'd much rather they be unsure and ask for our advice, rather than just make the decision themselves and leave us out of the process.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Raid'En
#94 - 2012-12-28 18:43:56 UTC
Quote:
NDA topic #2 - No minutes, NDA paragraph done by Trebor

let me guess : this was incarna

well anyway, will CCP release part of the minutes or only want to release it when everything is done ?
cause we're Friday evening, so things doesn't look good :P
Anne-Louise Chasse
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2012-12-28 18:57:37 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Anne-Louise Chasse wrote:
I may be missing out with the translation of your last posts, but I would say that the details of the last meeting are about CCP actually does not know what to do in the next expansion??QuestionAttentionShocked



CCP has a general idea of some of the things they think they can produce as part of the next expansion, but the feature set is not locked down yet. This isn't because they aren't working on designs and prototypes of things that COULD go into the expansion, but because they don't want to make the final decision without including the CSM (and thus the community as well) as part of that process.

So in this case, CCP not knowing exactly what is going into the next expansion is a GREAT thing. Unlike all the other expansions, where they decide for us, this time around they want to include us as part of the release planning. I'd much rather they be unsure and ask for our advice, rather than just make the decision themselves and leave us out of the process.


So we are waiting for the CSM & community and say what they would like to see in the next expansion, to choose between things that CCP believes it could develop / produce in the time left ...

Well, that's not very helpful for those obsessed like me, but it certainly is better than to rely on divine inspiration for CCP knows what most will like have in six months.

Think you CSM7 are doing better since the CSM exists, there really is a great thing that CCP will listen so directly to players (although we are in the minority/silent majority we get one multi megaton F*** You).
Frying Doom
#96 - 2012-12-28 22:21:32 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Hopefully they will be better thought out than the last template not a real document document, starting discussion point document that would just leave Hi-sec a smoking hole.


That's a really cute way of saying "Only those of you that insisted that high-sec not be touched in the slightest way in terms of safety or income shall be raptured away and spared 7 years of tribulation and wrath at the hands of Frying Doom. For I shall take all reasonable discussion about income spectrum and blow it up into a hyperbolic rant about how the CSM is out to destroy everyone's game and serves only their own corrupt interests!" Twisted

The fact that some of your membership in the CSM have no idea why the staff economist at CCP should be consulted kind of says it all.

Also you might want to read more and actually be involved in the community as a whole on the EvE forums before you rant about my point of view on what should be done to Null, there is a huge thread in General Discussion which of course you have not participated in.

I think that sums up CSM 7 quiet well.

Not part of the EvE community except their own little parts and having no idea what their ideas would do to the game.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#97 - 2012-12-28 22:29:10 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
The fact that some of your membership in the CSM have no idea why the staff economist at CCP should be consulted kind of says it all.


He's not a Game Designer. He follows economic trends and makes lots of graphs and charts. He is not part of CCP's feature development process and never has been. On some issues, he and his ~people~ are quizzed about things and adjustments might be made based on the data requested, but YOU seem to be confused about the role of the good Doctor.

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#98 - 2012-12-28 22:33:09 UTC
Raid'En wrote:
Quote:
NDA topic #2 - No minutes, NDA paragraph done by Trebor

let me guess : this was incarna


No.

Raid'En wrote:
well anyway, will CCP release part of the minutes or only want to release it when everything is done ?
cause we're Friday evening, so things doesn't look good :P


Noting will get released until it's approved by both sides of the process. Right now the road block is CCP and it will probably be sometime before mid-January before everything is all done. Maybe sooner, maybe not. The CSM is doing our part but, as has been stated, quite a lot of folks are simply NOT sitting in front of their computers over the past two weeks and with damn good reason. Personally, I'm expecting to see some real movement from CCP by next Friday (Jan 4th), at the very least a solid progress report on their end. If we don't have that, we will certainly let the community know.

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#99 - 2012-12-28 22:33:33 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
before you rant


Do you even know what this word means? Or are you just swatting it back like a badminton birdie? Roll

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#100 - 2012-12-28 22:34:07 UTC
Anne-Louise Chasse wrote:
With the mess you do about what CCP itself is working on it, almost makes you want to thank that all you spend WiS/Avatars oblivious.Ugh?


What?

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!