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Missiles and the future of caldari ships in EVE
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M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#161 - 2012-12-05 11:36:25 UTC
Pretty much EVERYTHING but HMLs is being buffed

Train HAMs and stop whininig is all I have to say to people giving up on drake/tengu etc.
HAM drake is lolOP now anyway...

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Dark Long
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#162 - 2012-12-05 13:31:19 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Kali Starchaser wrote:
So, I am hearing VERY discouraging things about the changes to missiles and many people I know are abandoning their caldari ships and starting over training for Gallente or Amarr ships/weapons. I am wondering if someone can 100% clarify these missile changes, and if they are as big of a change as I am hearing will there be an option to transfer the millions of points people have invested in missiles into something else of their choice?


So you have ignored the 2 months of consultation and testing and now you want others to tell you whats going on? Missiles are just being brought more in line with other damage systems, and while heavy missiles are getting nerfed assaults/rockets/torpedos are all getting big buffs. Cruise will still be broken but ccp will fix them when they rebalance bs early next year.

In a nut shell the heavy missiles are getting thier range and damage cut, hams/torps/rockets will now be effected by TNP and all missiles are getting increased velocity with flight time cut to keep range roughly the same. Tengu will still be better than anything else sub bs for pretty much all pve, and won't really have a missile competitor till cruise are fixed. Drake will be a bit less obviously better than all other long range bcs (tho hamdrake is sexed up). Nighthawk and cerberus will be more broken than now, but are due a major overhaul anyway. There are other tidbits like fury becoming more about short range pwnage of big stuff and precisions actually being useful.

If you were to change to amarr or gallente medium long range turrets you would find just how easy mode heavy missiles have been.


Tengu better for all pve lol son you have something to learn about the tengu for level 4 its not even in the top 5 for level 4's plex still might be tops but for level 4 tengu so no match for a bs in level 4 were can a tengu match 1360 dps mach in a mission.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#163 - 2012-12-05 14:41:44 UTC
You could have done the smart thing and crosstrained ahead of time.

Not that it's necessary. Heavy missiles are still plenty powerful, I have to fly towards my target occasionally, now, but that's not so bad, and even if there was a sig radius nerf, precisions got buffed.

Tengu is still a mean piece of work.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#164 - 2012-12-05 17:27:22 UTC
Dark Long wrote:


Tengu better for all pve lol son you have something to learn about the tengu for level 4 its not even in the top 5 for level 4's plex still might be tops but for level 4 tengu so no match for a bs in level 4 were can a tengu match 1360 dps mach in a mission.


Tengu WAS the most effective missile boat for lvl 4 missions.
It had good range with hmls, good dps, awesome tank, and cruiser class size and speed.

Sure, it's OP, but I don't blame that on heavy missiles.

Anyone blaming the OP nature of tengus and drakes on hmls needs to go to special education.


The drake had massive ehp. Most of the time when I face a drake that is actually a problem it's cause they're ham fitted, not hml.


With the tengu, it's everything and not at all the fault of hmls.
Tengu gets massive dps bonus, and massive range bonus.
Tanks better than many bs's.
Can fit 100mn afterburners.
Versatility of subsystems.
Over 800 dps with hams.

If you thought a hml tengu was a problem than just try taking on a ham tengu.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#165 - 2012-12-05 23:59:38 UTC
Drake doctrine need not change. When 200 drakes primary you, you're just as dead no matter how little dmg each does. These 200 drakes still have just as much buffer as before. 25% range decrease just means slightly smaller part of the blob is in range, you're still just as dead against the blob.

Drakes are far overtanked and underdpsed. CCP should have massively nerfed Drake buffer which would have killed drake blobs, but opted to butcher noob missionrunners instead.
ale rico
Slow Chidlren at Play
SL0W CHILDREN AT PLAY
#166 - 2012-12-06 19:30:43 UTC  |  Edited by: ale rico
My problem with the nerf is... was damage ever the issue with heavy missiles? I don't seem to recall the hml drake or the tengu being praised for their dps. I agree with the range nerf as it brings it in line with the rest of the BCs but come on...

By the way, HAMS should not outdamage HMLs they should out DPS them due to the better rate of fire. Like any of the other weapon systems in game, longer range gets the better alpha.

http://seventwo.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15402916

Took me 47 volleys with 5 launchers to do that much damage to kill that poor thing (meaning I had to reload and fire again...). If this is what they mean by "working as intended" I guess the intention is to remove heavy missiles from pvp. And you say tracking will affect missiles in the future? GL with that.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#167 - 2012-12-06 20:03:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Now that I have the new EFT.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24359

The numbers on the tengu aren't as bad as you'd think.

a tengu with 6x hml II and 4x CN BCU goes from 715 dps to 678 dps with fury, which isn't too bad.

However, it loses range down to 70.8km from 113.9km.

Wait...looking at it further it looks like something may be wrong with the new eft.

From what I understood of the patch notes fury and precision were supposed to have the same ranges, however, precision drops to 47.2 km, so i'm wondering if eft isn't messed up.
Olga Ivanovna
Doomheim
#168 - 2012-12-06 20:09:31 UTC
Just went for some missioning with the HML Tengu. I was surprised to find that it works almost as good as before with HML - except for some annoyance with range. I can live with it.

So no problems, the Tengu is still fine!
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#169 - 2012-12-06 20:12:45 UTC
Olga Ivanovna wrote:
Just went for some missioning with the HML Tengu. I was surprised to find that it works almost as good as before with HML - except for some annoyance with range. I can live with it.

So no problems, the Tengu is still fine!



What's your range with fury missiles?

Cause I get the feeling the new EFT is f'd up and didn't factor the 50% range nerf of fury missiles to make them the same range as precision.
Soliscout
#170 - 2012-12-06 20:59:41 UTC
Fury range is higher then precision range...EFT tells the truth Idea
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#171 - 2012-12-06 21:05:26 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Now that I have the new EFT.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24359

The numbers on the tengu aren't as bad as you'd think.

a tengu with 6x hml II and 4x CN BCU goes from 715 dps to 678 dps with fury, which isn't too bad.

However, it loses range down to 70.8km from 113.9km.

Wait...looking at it further it looks like something may be wrong with the new eft.

From what I understood of the patch notes fury and precision were supposed to have the same ranges, however, precision drops to 47.2 km, so i'm wondering if eft isn't messed up.

Fury range was reduced to 75% of the new T1 range, which is still ~50% farther than Precision IIRC.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#172 - 2012-12-06 21:36:37 UTC
Soliscout wrote:
Fury range is higher then precision range...EFT tells the truth Idea



yeah, I got that, but it seems that the unbonused range on EFT is higher than the google doc showed.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#173 - 2012-12-07 06:04:10 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
BuckStrider wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
BuckStrider wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
the only thing that got nerfed are heavies, is the drake the only ship you use, being a complete chince by never fitting HAMs on it? a HAM drake is great.

HAM tengu with javelins will be pretty powerful too.


Not in fleet fights.


not in spam 3000 ship fights no, which is why only maelstroms ever


Now that heavies are getting nerfed, you remove yet another ship from 0.0 pvp

And you wonder why newer players don't want to go to 0.0 and retention is so hard

Can't wait to see how many players give up using bombers because of this new (and really dumb) Micro Jump Drive



Yeah, gonna eduate you a bit here.

MJD has a 12 second spool up time. That means you don't move for 12 seconds after hitting the button.

I'll be generous and give you a 2 second reaction time, meaning you hit the button 2 seconds after seeing the bombers decloak and launch. But, as you'll see in a moment, even if you hit it perfectly your reaction time does not matter.

Bombs detonate 10 seconds after launch.

So unless you hit the button at least 3 seconds before the guy fires the bomb, you're still going to get hit. In which case, unless you're in a freighter, you would have warped out by then anyway.

Ignoring the fact that even 7 bombs, the max you can launch at one area at a time, will not kill a battleship.

Ignoring the fact that you aren't going anywhere anyway if he forgoes the bomb and just decloaks next to you and tackles you.


Micro Jump Drives have no bearing on stealth bombers whatsoever.



Inaccurate facts in this post. MJD has a 12 second spool up which is reduced by 5% per level of micro jump drive operation. At IV, this is roughly 9.6 seconds at 5 this a 9 second spool up. With stealth bombers, they have to decloak, then fire, there tends to be a small delay between decloaking and firing the bomb, so you really do have about 2 seconds to click the mjd, and escape successfully, if you have MJDO 5. HOWEVER, how relevant is an example of someone firing a bomb? It's not gonna pop you anyway, and supposing there are enough bombers firing bombs to pop you, yea, the first few will hit, but you'll be out before the next round goes off, so you WILL live. Micro jump drives > stealth bombers.
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#174 - 2012-12-07 06:28:03 UTC
The only way you can think that Caldari ships or missiles are now useless is if you believe that Caldari = HML Drake.

Even light missiles have been buffed, wait a bit so the Corax is not 15 million ISK anymore and give a light missile Corax a go it's scary what it can do. Ravens can also get disturbing damage output but has a very hard time actually applying it and the addition of guided missile precision to torps have gone a long way to help that. The same applies to ships using HAMs. Give a HAM Drake with a web a go I'll bet it's better than you think. The reduction in grid need for HAMs has also made it easier to fit them to Caldari ships that are often lacking in grid.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Oopsy Bear
Doomheim
#175 - 2012-12-07 06:46:23 UTC
I see a huge thread full of people who think the tengu is the only caldari ship. Gallente tears I could understand.

I want to find the CCP developer who made precision cruise missiles the wonderful things they are now and give him/her a hug.
GiveMeATry
Storm Chasers.
Pandemic Horde
#176 - 2012-12-07 07:08:31 UTC
I love how everyone says use assaults. Try running c4 sites in a drake now or break rr in a c5 or c6 with a tengu. Also show me the stats on wasted dps for missiles in flight after a ship explodes. Small buff my (insert term).