These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Missiles and the future of caldari ships in EVE
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Gal'o Sengen
Doomheim
#61 - 2012-11-30 14:39:56 UTC
I don't see why any sensible person would cross train solely because of the nerf considering Heavy Missiles are still better than every other long range medium sized weapons system after the nerf.Roll

Woe unto anyone who decided to train for Medium Rails.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2012-12-04 20:05:52 UTC
Gal'o Sengen wrote:
I don't see why any sensible person would cross train solely because of the nerf considering Heavy Missiles are still better than every other long range medium sized weapons system after the nerf.Roll

Woe unto anyone who decided to train for Medium Rails.


You didn't mention medium ACs. Oh wait...
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2012-12-04 20:18:21 UTC
Missile changes are just bittervets whining.

I'm glad that CCP realized it's "EVE Online", not "Caldari Online". Other races have been neglected far too long, I'm glad to see the buffs to the other 3 races.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2012-12-04 20:19:24 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
loki energon wrote:
John Caligan wrote:
Quite frankly, I am a bit peeved at the explosion radius increase and damage cut coming to HMs. I fly a PvE Drake in LV3's, and I already do crap damage against my targets. Now, I'm gonna do even less...


is this just a troll? really? if you arent clobbering L3 missions inna drake, i have one thing to say.
YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.
a well fit drake can do 500+ dps. if thats waaay more than you are getting, check your fitttings, check your rigs, and for heavens sake train your support skills to at LEAST 4


It's ~270 dps for lvl2-3 skill noobs, far less with exp radius and exp velocity applied. That is, if they fit properly (noobs tend to fit 4x sprs in lows and no dmg mod), if not, they don't break rat regen. Or do you think max skilled vets run lvl3 missions in drakes?

Go look in help channels in game. Noob cane lvl3 missioners never have trouble killing rats even with all their skills at lvl1 and bad fits. It's only the noob drake missioners complaining about not being able to break rat regen.

Vet carebears grind missions in Machs/Vargurs/NM. Tengu, much less Drake, is far too anemic in dps even pre-nerf compared to these.

This is basically a noob mission runner nerf. It doesn't affect vet carebears who don't use HM anyway. Nor drake blobbers who don't care for dmg on a drake, only buffer. You're just as dead when primaried by 500 drakes, and each of their buffers are just as beefy.

Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Missile changes are just bittervets whining.

I'm glad that CCP realized it's "EVE Online", not "Caldari Online". Other races have been neglected far too long, I'm glad to see the buffs to the other 3 races.


Winmatar online? Don't get me wrong, I fly Winmatar, not Caldari, but just had to say something regarding this hypocrisy...
lovatus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#65 - 2012-12-04 20:28:02 UTC
well I just went through an entire rack of scourge furies to kill one guristas cruiser, burnt up more isk than i made on that l3, and thats in a decent fit drake and all missile support skills at l4. this essentially makes all caldari missile cruisers and bc's unflyable
Korinne
The Partisan Brigade
#66 - 2012-12-04 20:30:13 UTC
Jackie Fisher wrote:
From https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155029&find=unread
CCP Fozzie wrote:

All Missiles
Increase missile acceleration so that real range is much closer to the client assumed range of flighttime*speed against a stationary target. This means a slight range buff for all missiles, and missiles will act in a way that is more intuitive to newer players.

Short Range Missiles
Change the Guided Missile Precision skill, as well as all associated implants and rigs to affect all subcap missiles
Reduce HAM launcher PG requirements by 10%

Light Missiles
-Decrease all Light Missile Launcher fitting requirements by 2pg and 4cpu
-Explosion radius reduced from 50 to 40
-Damage increased by 10% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant light missiles, including FOF.

Heavy Missiles
-Base flight time reduced by 35%
-Base velocity increased by 14.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 10% (rounded to closest digit)
-Explosion radius increased by 12%
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.

Tech Two Missiles
-Remove ship penalties from tech two missiles (ship velocity and signature radius)
-Precision: Increase bonuses to explosion velocity to +20%, increase damage to match T1 missiles
-Fury: Increase damage bonus to +35%, reduce flight time to 75% of T1, unify penalties to explosion radius (+72%) and velocity (-16%) across the sizes
-Javelin: Just remove ship penalties
-Rage: Increase damage bonus to +35%, Unify flight time to match T1, unify velocity penalty (-16.7%), unify penalty to explosion velocity (-14%), increase penalty to explosion radius (+72%)

tl:dr version - heavy missiles getting nerfed, all other sub cap missiles getting buffed.


They really need to do something about 'time of flight' bonuses because with the exception of maybe torpedos, they're all worthless and should be replaced with velocity bonuses, then maybe ships like the Cerberus would be worth actual isk. Range is irrelevant if it literally takes a minute or longer for damage to land.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-12-04 20:31:33 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Missile changes are just bittervets whining.

I'm glad that CCP realized it's "EVE Online", not "Caldari Online". Other races have been neglected far too long, I'm glad to see the buffs to the other 3 races.


What???

The only thing missile boats were really ever that good for were PVE...

You can argue that the drake and tengu were great pvp ships, but lets look at the facts.

Hmls had great range... Little bit OP, sure.

drake has a massive passive tank, and can be even more devistating using hams cause it can out tank its opponent.

Tengu has speed, cruiser sig radius, battleship class tank, battleship class dps, and can be fitted for just about any situation.


These two ships do not constitute caldari being OP.

Look at Winmatar.

Sleipnir - pwn
Macharial - pwn
Claymore - pwn
Hurricane
Tornado
Cyclone
Tempest + fleet
Typhoon + fleet
Maelstrom
Bhaalgorn
Vindicator
Rupture
Stabber
Blah Blah Blah, the list goes on. Minmatar are the single most versatile and most effective pvp ships in the game.
Just about any ship with the Minmatar name attached to it is one of the best ships that can be flown expecially in pvp.

As a matter of fact, there are more ships presented in pvp per race than Caldari can shake a stick at

The one thing Caldari had going for them was range. Range of hmls and cruise missiles. However, if their target had them in optimal for ANY weapon system, then they would get pwned. Caldari is the best at beating ships outside of their optimal, but cannot compete against ships in their optimal.

So, what's this about the game being Caldari online?
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2012-12-04 20:36:38 UTC
lovatus wrote:
well I just went through an entire rack of scourge furies to kill one guristas cruiser, burnt up more isk than i made on that l3, and thats in a decent fit drake and all missile support skills at l4. this essentially makes all caldari missile cruisers and bc's unflyable


This is the noob whine that takes up most of help channel volume pre-nerf, unique to heavy missiles/drake, as cane noob missioners rarely have trouble killing rats. And now, exp velocity + exp radius + (least of all) 10% dmg nerf brings this noob experience to you.Lol
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2012-12-04 20:40:26 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Joe Risalo wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Missile changes are just bittervets whining.

I'm glad that CCP realized it's "EVE Online", not "Caldari Online". Other races have been neglected far too long, I'm glad to see the buffs to the other 3 races.


What???

The only thing missile boats were really ever that good for were PVE...

You can argue that the drake and tengu were great pvp ships, but lets look at the facts.

Hmls had great range... Little bit OP, sure.

drake has a massive passive tank, and can be even more devistating using hams cause it can out tank its opponent.

Tengu has speed, cruiser sig radius, battleship class tank, battleship class dps, and can be fitted for just about any situation.


These two ships do not constitute caldari being OP.

Look at Winmatar.

Sleipnir - pwn
Macharial - pwn
Claymore - pwn
Hurricane - pwn
Tornado - pwn
Cyclone
Tempest + fleet
Typhoon + fleet
Maelstrom + fleet
Bhaalgorn
Vindicator
Rupture
Stabber
Blah Blah Blah, the list goes on. Minmatar are the single most versatile and most effective pvp ships in the game.
Just about any ship with the Minmatar name attached to it is one of the best ships that can be flown expecially in pvp.

As a matter of fact, there are more ships presented in pvp per race than Caldari can shake a stick at

The one thing Caldari had going for them was range. Range of hmls and cruise missiles. However, if their target had them in optimal for ANY weapon system, then they would get pwned. Caldari is the best at beating ships outside of their optimal, but cannot compete against ships in their optimal.

So, what's this about the game being Caldari online?


You missed the pwn tags on cane and tornado. There, I fixed it for you.

Also, suggesting adding fail list. Guess which race will populate it...Cool
lovatus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#70 - 2012-12-04 20:41:18 UTC
from what ive experienced so far, the missile changes have been REALLY bad.
my drake has gone from putting out 500 damage per volley to less than 300, and with the unchanged cycle times on the launchers you can now get tanked by cruisers pretty easily. range has gone from 60km to around 47KM, essentially making heavy missiles unusable as a weapon as everyone else can either out range out damage or fire faster than you.
Korinne
The Partisan Brigade
#71 - 2012-12-04 20:43:59 UTC
They chose the nuclear option for dealing with missles, mostly because of drakes and the fact that these giant alliances can build 200 cookie cutter drakes and throw them at noobs just to pad their fleets. That's not a problem w/ drakes, thats a problem w/ huge alliances and the mechanics for huge blob fights.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2012-12-04 20:44:46 UTC
lovatus wrote:
from what ive experienced so far, the missile changes have been REALLY bad.
my drake has gone from putting out 500 damage per volley to less than 300, and with the unchanged cycle times on the launchers you can now get tanked by cruisers pretty easily. range has gone from 60km to around 47KM, essentially making heavy missiles unusable as a weapon as everyone else can either out range out damage or fire faster than you.


But it's only 10%! Oh wait, exp radius + exp velocity. Makes you wonder if devs actually plays Eve.Roll
lovatus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#73 - 2012-12-04 20:45:04 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
lovatus wrote:
well I just went through an entire rack of scourge furies to kill one guristas cruiser, burnt up more isk than i made on that l3, and thats in a decent fit drake and all missile support skills at l4. this essentially makes all caldari missile cruisers and bc's unflyable


This is the noob whine that takes up most of help channel volume pre-nerf, unique to heavy missiles/drake, as cane noob missioners rarely have trouble killing rats. And now, exp velocity + exp radius + (least of all) 10% dmg nerf brings this noob experience to you.Lol

doesnt change the fact that missiles have now become unusable, ive ended up resorting to a ferox with rails now so i an actually do l3 missions
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2012-12-04 20:47:14 UTC
lovatus wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
lovatus wrote:
well I just went through an entire rack of scourge furies to kill one guristas cruiser, burnt up more isk than i made on that l3, and thats in a decent fit drake and all missile support skills at l4. this essentially makes all caldari missile cruisers and bc's unflyable


This is the noob whine that takes up most of help channel volume pre-nerf, unique to heavy missiles/drake, as cane noob missioners rarely have trouble killing rats. And now, exp velocity + exp radius + (least of all) 10% dmg nerf brings this noob experience to you.Lol

doesnt change the fact that missiles have now become unusable, ive ended up resorting to a ferox with rails now so i an actually do l3 missions


It's unusable for you. Imagine how it is for the noobs. It's almost as if CCP want rookie players to quit the game.Lol

Korinne wrote:
They chose the nuclear option for dealing with missles, mostly because of drakes and the fact that these giant alliances can build 200 cookie cutter drakes and throw them at noobs just to pad their fleets. That's not a problem w/ drakes, thats a problem w/ huge alliances and the mechanics for huge blob fights.


Guess again. When 200 drakes primary you, you're just as dead. And their buffer is just as beefy.

No, this is a nerf for noob mission runners, not drake blobs.
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
#75 - 2012-12-04 20:48:11 UTC  |  Edited by: BoBoZoBo
My Tengu was doing 113km before patch, now it is doing 70km and less DPS.

While 113 was a bit overkill, so is the nerf. I can confirm the new change is discouraging and a bit of a reach considering missiles are on the low end of the DPS pool as it is unless you have them ALL relevant skills maxed to 5. Luckily, I can fly 3 and 1/2 races to perfection.

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite
fukier
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2012-12-04 20:54:28 UTC
Kali Starchaser wrote:
So, I am hearing VERY discouraging things about the changes to missiles and many people I know are abandoning their caldari ships and starting over training for Gallente or Amarr ships/weapons. I am wondering if someone can 100% clarify these missile changes, and if they are as big of a change as I am hearing will there be an option to transfer the millions of points people have invested in missiles into something else of their choice?


hml nerf that is all...

and if you are cross training go minnie...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2012-12-04 20:55:40 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
BoBoZoBo wrote:
My Tengu was doing 113km before patch, now it is doing 70km and less DPS.

While 113 was a bit overkill, so is the nerf. I can confirm the new change is discouraging and a bit of a reach considering missiles are on the low end of the DPS pool as it is unless you have them ALL relevant skills maxed to 5. Luckily, I can fly 3 and 1/2 races to perfection.


Your max skill tengu is still workable. 70km is not much lower than the AC Mach. The Mach does 2x the dps, but also harder to speed tank. Btw, I'd imagine that 3 and 1/2 races include Winmatar? So you're good.

The people who really got butchered are noob mission runners with drakes. Go into help channel in game right now, and you'll see them "seeking help" for not breaking the tank of a cruiser rat. CCP hates noobs/new customers...
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#78 - 2012-12-04 20:58:57 UTC
Kali Starchaser wrote:
So, I am hearing VERY discouraging things about the changes to missiles and many people I know are abandoning their caldari ships and starting over training for Gallente or Amarr ships/weapons. I am wondering if someone can 100% clarify these missile changes, and if they are as big of a change as I am hearing will there be an option to transfer the millions of points people have invested in missiles into something else of their choice?

Train all ships and all weapons to 5.
Then when ccp gets stupid on missiles just switch to pulse lasers or other weapon systems.
CausticS0da
Shrubbery Acquisitions
Blohm and Voss Shipyards Alliance
#79 - 2012-12-04 21:01:49 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Missile changes are just bittervets whining.

I'm glad that CCP realized it's "EVE Online", not "Caldari Online". Other races have been neglected far too long, I'm glad to see the buffs to the other 3 races.


What???

The only thing missile boats were really ever that good for were PVE...

You can argue that the drake and tengu were great pvp ships, but lets look at the facts.

Hmls had great range... Little bit OP, sure.

drake has a massive passive tank, and can be even more devistating using hams cause it can out tank its opponent.

Tengu has speed, cruiser sig radius, battleship class tank, battleship class dps, and can be fitted for just about any situation.


These two ships do not constitute caldari being OP.

Look at Winmatar.

Sleipnir - pwn
Macharial - pwn
Claymore - pwn
Hurricane - pwn
Tornado - pwn
Cyclone
Tempest + fleet
Typhoon + fleet
Maelstrom + fleet
Bhaalgorn
Vindicator
Rupture
Stabber
Blah Blah Blah, the list goes on. Minmatar are the single most versatile and most effective pvp ships in the game.
Just about any ship with the Minmatar name attached to it is one of the best ships that can be flown expecially in pvp.

As a matter of fact, there are more ships presented in pvp per race than Caldari can shake a stick at

The one thing Caldari had going for them was range. Range of hmls and cruise missiles. However, if their target had them in optimal for ANY weapon system, then they would get pwned. Caldari is the best at beating ships outside of their optimal, but cannot compete against ships in their optimal.

So, what's this about the game being Caldari online?


You missed the pwn tags on cane and tornado. There, I fixed it for you.

Also, suggesting adding fail list. Guess which race will populate it...Cool



Merlin?
Harpy?
Hookbill?
Falcon?
Scorpion?
Tengu?
Drake?
Naga?

Drake and tengu fleets have been core doctrines for many alliances over the last 2 years...
KrakizBad
Section 8.
#80 - 2012-12-04 21:04:30 UTC
lovatus wrote:
well I just went through an entire rack of scourge furies to kill one guristas cruiser, burnt up more isk than i made on that l3, and thats in a decent fit drake and all missile support skills at l4. this essentially makes all caldari missile cruisers and bc's unflyable

You're full of crap. I tried this out with a tengu and barely noticed the change.