EVE General Discussion

Someone said due to risks involved, but that's just a relatively insignificant part of the reason really. There is simply little to no need of them in EVE and the game mechanics discourage this play style (to my dissatisfaction, as being a "white knight" is actually my favourite play style in games that do allow/facilitate it).

For the most part, people who could use that kind of protection either A) stick to hi-sec where the almighty CONCORD reacts without failure quicker and with more firepower than any player ever could (that is, if the offence is serious enough; and if not, other players can't really interfere or CONCORD will come after them instead), or B) are a part of a relatively large null-sec corp/alliance and have its members to protect them. Thus, the "white knight's" best choice would probably be to join a large corp/alliance and provide internal security for them.

"White knight" play style was actually very viable in Darkfall and obviously not for the lack of risks involved. It was viable because, in EVE's terms, Darkfall world (before 2.0) consisted of low-sec and null. No NPC police forces to speak of, only stationary automated defences in few places, so some players would take on that role instead. EVE, such as it is, is simply not enough of a sandbox to allow that kind of play style.

For actual vigilante "white knight" or some kind of player police force corp play styles to be viable, CONCORD would have to be nerfed considerably. Other changes would also have to be made, but the new flagging system coming Dec 4th may just be the move in the right direction.

I blame our failing education system. EvE takes a certain minimum amount of intelligence to play. Even our frothing lunatics must still have a certain base IQ just to survive long enough to keep on spewing froth & lunacy. Games like WoW... give me a above average chimpanzee and in two months I can show you a level eighty anything.

Wow is for the masses, EvE is for the chosen.

I'm a bit late to the conversation on this one but I don't agree that the reason EVE isn't as popular as, say, WoW is because of PvP.

PvP is something that a -lot- of players want to engage in. In fact, direct combat between people is one of the most popular activities in a lot of MMOs and other games. Look at the initial success of Planetside 2 as an example. Look at Aion when it came out. Look at Guild Wars. All of these games were primarily chosen because of the PvP.

Trying to say that PvP is the problem is being short sighted in my view. I will agree that part of the problem is how PvP is implemented in EVE Online.

People who engage in PvP want to be able to pick their fights and be able to DO something in a fight. Suicide ganking is a terrible mechanic when it doesn't allow the attacked to do anything. There is a feeling for the victim that they cannot react in a suicide ganking. That there was nothing that they could do. That's a serious game design flaw.

People may claim that tanking their ships better is what someone can do but, no, that just means that the suicde gank has to bring more firepower for what is, essentially, the insta-kill. Instant kill mechanisms suck when there is no way to avoid them. In FPS people are entering the game with the expectation of combat (always on combat) then they know that being shot at by a sniper is a possibility. Plus they know that there are counters: they can crouch, duck around corners, change direction suddenly, etc. It might suck to be insta-killed with a headshot but, hey, that's the game and they could have done something to prevent it.

In EVE, high sec is littered with wrecks of people who were unable to fight back and got insta-killed through, in their own eyes, no fault of their own. This creates frustration which, in turn, leads to people quitting out of frustration. That's just one path in which someone leaves the game.

I am more in favor or no CONCORD for player retention purposes than leaving high security space as it is. It isn't safe but it is presented as safe. This needs to be addressed.

There is a ton of stuff in EVE Online that is designed to keep a new player at a perceived disadvantage. The higher the barrier to entry the harder it is to retain players. Players get frustrated and quit.

The players who quit may be stupid, may be intelligent, may be friendly, may be jerks - it doesn't matter and there isn't just one type of player who stops playing.

The current new player experience is one that presents a very difficult barrier to overcome and because of that EVE Online loses a lot of players who try out the game.

But, here's the thing, that isn't really a bad thing overall for EVE. For years this was the situation and yet EVE continued to grow and grow and grow in terms of its population. Sure, it grew slowly, but it grew contrary to most MMOs out there. And then a terrible expansion happened and EVE's population plummeted. That one expansion is, in my view, the final reason for the current state of EVE Online's population challenge. It was a culmination of a lot of different factors that all came together in one expansion.

Happily, CCP is addressing a lot of what went off the track so people are coming back to EVE. But, I've also noticed that a lot of blame for why people stopped playing is placed at the wrong spot - walking in stations. In my view, it was the NEX store and what the NEX store represented that was the final issue for many players. The NEX store encapsulated so many sentiments about EVE's drift away from Internet Spaceships, CCP's apparent focus on -other- things than EVE, and CCP ignoring the playerbase who wanted EVE content for EVE that was player driven.

Anyway, what can be done to bring more players to EVE? Improve the new user experience. Make it easier for players to find other players to actually play with. Make it more clear to people that high sec space isn't supposed to be 'safe' as such. Find a way to provide people who are being ganked some sort of process to react to it and either fight back or escape. In other words, get rid of the situation whereby one party cannot fight back. Warping off the moment someone new shows up is a valid option here in my mind but because of how high security space is presented to players this isn't the first reaction of many people - so something in the game design is flawed.

I would love to see Walking in Stations finished - complete with common areas where players can interact with other players, buy drinks (player designed, built, and supplied - of course), decorate their quarters (player designed, built, and supplied), play card games (like player run poker matches, or newly imagined player defined games), be able to purchase new quarters or extensions (designed by players, built by players, supplied by the owner of the space station.... I think I've made my point), and just interact.

More player with player interaction that is easier to get into is what I'd like to see. There is still so much that can be done with EVE to continue to support player activities without defining those activities. EVE should continue to provide framework in which players define the details.

I think part of why EVE has a 'stalled' feeling associated with it is because veteran players have, essentially, won the game. They've gotten as far as the code will allow them to have an impact on the game universe and once that happens... what more is there? Sure, they can stick around and do Sov wars over and over but it's the same old same old.

CCP needs to open up the game framework to allow players MORE impact on the game.

@Fractal Muse
iam sorry but i stop reading here


"People who engage in PvP want to be able to pick their fights and be able to DO something in a fight. Suicide ganking is a terrible mechanic when it doesn't allow the attacked to do anything. There is a feeling for the victim that they cannot react in a suicide ganking. That there was nothing that they could do. That's a serious game design flaw"

This is a not a desing flaw this sandbox......

Your post sounds like a to many QQ mining post.... Wrong topic.

yep, most people tend to not read the fine print below the undock button saying "by undocking this ship you accept the fact you will die"

This man understands my signature.

Those that get insta killed fail to realize that their fatal errors occurred before the first shot was fired at them. They failed when they fit their ship, when they chose the area they were operating in, and in refusing to use the variety of tools at their disposal to simply ensure they were not there when their would be killers arrived. They chose, whether through their actions or their inaction, to be a victim. They could just as easily have made choices that would make them a predator, or at the very least a survivor.

CCP ensures that you have the same choices as everyone else. They, however, can not ensure that you make wise ones.

That is something you have to take responsibility for yourself.

I have no idea why I've never said this before.

To all those out there who mention anything about being killed in a ship where you couldn't fight back and how that indicates a broken mechanic and here's why that's nonsense:

No one EVER forced you to undock in an industrial ship or mining barge, that was all you. It's not that you couldn't fight back it's that in your ship choice, both type and fit, YOU CHOSE NOT TO. Your choices are your own and you live with them however they pan out. If you want to fight back then DO IT. There is absolutely nothing preventing you from getting into a combat ship aside from your own desire to make money with your barge. Hell I even remember a pilot by the name of Allysia Voctor I played with back from 2008 who used to kill can flippers in a mining barge because she fit for it. You are presented everyday with the same choices presented to Allysia. She chose to kick their asses, so if you chose to mine harder then that's your choice but live with it.

In the interest of pointing out where I'm coming from I have a mining alt as well and I choose not to overtank and fit my ship for combat so I don't mine in systems that are often ganked ie.) abudban and if I do get ganked then I chalk it up to expected operational cost. It'll happen once in a while but the barge far more often than not will mine far more money than it is worth over that timeframe.

Well said and well put. All I can hope for is that the bounty system eventually enables CCP to relax CONCORD's grip somewhat.

Oh coincidence how do I love thee, almost no sooner than I post this I find this:

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=18162268#new

That is pretty much what I'm talking about.