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If CCP wants to increase retention numbers...

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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2012-11-26 03:59:20 UTC
It seems nobody got the hidden point of my OP.


I've read several dev blogs and even the CSM notes, where CCP seems to be focused on retention rates. Oh, if we could just fix the new player experience so that we could increase the retention rates even a couple %.... blah blah blah.

Well, as I've said, increasing the retention rate would be easy. Get rid of my ability to get 51-day alt account and 30 days on my main account, for the cost of 30 days on my main account.... Fewer temp, throw away alt accounts would result in a much higher retention rate of the actual, real, new players.

OH.. That isn't what they actually mean?

They actually want to increase the player base, by keeping more of the actual real players. Just decreasing the number of new accounts to increase the retention rate does not do that....


Then perhaps, (My implied point of the OP) if they really want to increase the player base, perhaps they should stop looking at the retention rate and start focusing on bringing in more ACTUAL new players.

The retention rate sucks, not because the new player experience sucks, but rather, because the vast, vast majority of new accounts are not actual new players. Fixing the new player experience is not going to increase the player base, if all those "new players" they hope to retain are actually just alts that the creator never had any intention of keeping beyond the first 51-81 days.


Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-11-26 09:48:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Gillia Winddancer
A cheap way (not cheap as in production value but cheap as in a cheap trick) could be to have a few 30-minute series made. CCP is pretty high quality in terms of trailers and storytelling so and as far as I am aware of, EVE is quite rich in lore of the sci-fi kind. Half hour short stories would IMO be the ultimate way to go, preferably starting from the beginning when New Eden is discovered and all that.

Basically start off by peeking people's interest in EVE. That's where it always should start anyway.

As for retention rate, I really doubt that it will change all that much because the game is what it is and it caters for a rather niched group of gamers. Besides I don't think that too many MMO devs have gone too far into "movie making" so word of something like this would probably go out pretty fast.

Try introducing EVE to a bunch of WoW or CoD teenagers. You'd probably be lucky to even retain 5% of that group.

On the other side, some of the current items that are being developed/revamped by CCP may very well slightly increase the retention rate. The UI revamp is one such item.

But apart from that, the only real option is making more people aware and curious of EVE. That's pretty much the only way to increase the number of players.
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-11-26 10:19:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiteo Hatto
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
A cheap way (not cheap as in production value but cheap as in a cheap trick) could be to have a few 30-minute series made. CCP is pretty high quality in terms of trailers and storytelling so and as far as I am aware of, EVE is quite rich in lore of the sci-fi kind. Half hour short stories would IMO be the ultimate way to go, preferably starting from the beginning when New Eden is discovered and all that.



I love this idea.
Hell, they could even play short trailers on tv or something.

However, the trailers as they are now are mostly misleading. It would be nice if CCP would come up with a trailer that reflects the actual gameplay and doesn't make people instantly think of "scum in space hardcore mode" when you mention eve to them.

The beauty of eve for me is the lore and the story to be honest, if only eve could appeal more to sci fi folk. My boss's husband was in the navy and he got interested in eve when i told him about ship classes and guns and stuff, but after doing some reading about it he concluded that he didn't need a 2nd job and that "the community looks like a bunch of trolling people with too much time on their hands".
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-11-26 10:29:34 UTC
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
I love this idea.
Hell, they could even play short trailers on tv or something.

However, the trailers as they are now are mostly misleading. It would be nice if CCP would come up with a trailer that reflects the actual gameplay and doesn't make people instantly think of "scum in space hardcore mode" when you mention eve to them.

The beauty of eve for me is the lore and the story to be honest, if only eve could appeal more to sci fi folk. My boss's husband was in the navy and he got interested in eve when i told him about ship classes and guns and stuff, but after doing some reading about it he concluded that he didn't need a 2nd job and that "the community looks like a bunch of trolling people with too much time on their hands".


yes a montage of miners and mission runners would totally attract so many players

"oh man I can mine AND kill NPCs? sign me up"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Rico Minali
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-11-26 10:38:01 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
... get rid of buddy invite program where for the price of one PLEX, we can get 51 days on a new account and 30 days on our current account.

It is my experience that 75+% of "new players" are really just vets on alts. You don't have to be in a conversation with a "new player" very long before they slip up and use common EVE terminology or in some other way show that they are not really a new player.

SO, even if the "real" retention rates are close to 50%, it will show up in CCP data as 90% of new accounts drop after 51 days.... (21 day trial and 30 days they paid for, to actually get the 30 days on their main).



Damn those pesky people who want to make alts...

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2012-11-26 10:59:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiteo Hatto
Andski wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
I love this idea.
Hell, they could even play short trailers on tv or something.

However, the trailers as they are now are mostly misleading. It would be nice if CCP would come up with a trailer that reflects the actual gameplay and doesn't make people instantly think of "scum in space hardcore mode" when you mention eve to them.

The beauty of eve for me is the lore and the story to be honest, if only eve could appeal more to sci fi folk. My boss's husband was in the navy and he got interested in eve when i told him about ship classes and guns and stuff, but after doing some reading about it he concluded that he didn't need a 2nd job and that "the community looks like a bunch of trolling people with too much time on their hands".


yes a montage of miners and mission runners would totally attract so many players

"oh man I can mine AND kill NPCs? sign me up"



You misunderstand what I mean.

What CCP tell you in the trailers: "You can be anyone you want, you can do anything you want, universe is yours blah blah blah"
What you get when you login: "HTFU,pvp or GTFO my game you peasant carebear!11!1!1"

What CCP shows in trailers: Big organized fleet fights with cool headed FCs.
What you get in game: Blobs of the same ships and cheap tactics for "lolz" as well as clueless emoraging FCs.

What CCP shows in null trailers: Constant fighting for systems between big alliances.
What actually happens:"Let us carebear in our little corner among the sea of blues"

Now imagine if ccp actually showed gate camping, scamming and highsec ganking.....

Hope you see my point now ?
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-11-26 11:39:08 UTC
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Andski wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
I love this idea.
Hell, they could even play short trailers on tv or something.

However, the trailers as they are now are mostly misleading. It would be nice if CCP would come up with a trailer that reflects the actual gameplay and doesn't make people instantly think of "scum in space hardcore mode" when you mention eve to them.

The beauty of eve for me is the lore and the story to be honest, if only eve could appeal more to sci fi folk. My boss's husband was in the navy and he got interested in eve when i told him about ship classes and guns and stuff, but after doing some reading about it he concluded that he didn't need a 2nd job and that "the community looks like a bunch of trolling people with too much time on their hands".


yes a montage of miners and mission runners would totally attract so many players

"oh man I can mine AND kill NPCs? sign me up"



You misunderstand what I mean.

What CCP tell you in the trailers: "You can be anyone you want, you can do anything you want, universe is yours blah blah blah"
What you get when you login: "HTFU,pvp or GTFO my game you peasant carebear!11!1!1"

What CCP shows in trailers: Big organized fleet fights with cool headed FCs.
What you get in game: Blobs of the same ships and cheap tactics for "lolz" as well as clueless emoraging FCs.

What CCP shows in null trailers: Constant fighting for systems between big alliances.
What actually happens:"Let us carebear in our little corner among the sea of blues"

Now imagine if ccp actually showed gate camping, scamming and highsec ganking.....

Hope you see my point now ?


Well, it's a plus if they were to incorporate actual gameplay mechanics in their videos, however I will have to disagree with some of the things that they should show. Gatecamping being the point that I reacted on. Scamming and high-sec ganking (to an extent) is all fine. Gatecamping however is something I personally would avoid because of the fact that the mechanics involved are just rather bad in the first place. As a propagator that is all for removing gates (exit points to be specific) for the sake of player freedom and options, gatecamping is not something I'd personally like to see shown. Throw in the fact that gatecamping is an issue that divides the community and it could end up having a negative effect.

However, showing off the things that do work is just a big plus, but at the same time preferably as a part of the storytelling/lore.

And I don't see anything wrong with showing off mining as well. It'd be a great advantage in fact if in such a scene it would be explicitly stated that it's a hell of a monotone and time-consuming task. Cause that is the truth of the game after all.
Digital Messiah
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-11-26 11:39:36 UTC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCuQGwcZZ0s

The casualty trailer is the essence of EVE. The problem isn't attracting people. EVE is a lot like dungeons and dragons. There are people who don't mind taking their time to achieve a goal. But there are others who don't like to have to learn the rules, commit time, or dream a little bigger, some people just want to aim and shoot. Since EVE has been on the market for almost ten years. It is clear to see we have a majority of those types of people. Finding new ones will mean stretching even farther or drastically changing the aspects of EVE.

My best proposed theory is to create test servers where CCP drastically changes different aspects of the games meta. Such as skill points, security, sovereignty, risk vs reward, and of course interaction or projection. What eve lacks more than anything is plug and play. Something that can be best described as the speed for which a player can start a simulation and start being immersed in it. This would of course make an endless beta and would require resources CCP doesn't have. Mostly because they would have to run another server that was drastically different and take man power from EVE and it's expansions.

So the last option comes to us, the players. If you want to increase the population in EVE than you simply need to introduce more people to it. And if you yourself can not find someone who wants to join. Than you see yourself how hard it must be for CCP to get strangers to do it.

Something clever
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#29 - 2012-11-26 11:41:01 UTC
Gillia Winddancer wrote:


Try introducing EVE to a bunch of WoW or CoD teenagers. You'd probably be lucky to even retain 5% of that group.



Yeah why bother, EvE's subs would just double or triple because of that 5% Roll

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-11-26 11:44:43 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Gillia Winddancer wrote:


Try introducing EVE to a bunch of WoW or CoD teenagers. You'd probably be lucky to even retain 5% of that group.



Yeah why bother, EvE's subs would just double or triple because of that 5% Roll


Well my bad. Maybe that 5% was a bit of an overestimated example. By about 4.999995%. Or so...
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#31 - 2012-11-26 11:46:17 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
It seems nobody got the hidden point of my OP.


I've read several dev blogs and even the CSM notes, where CCP seems to be focused on retention rates. Oh, if we could just fix the new player experience so that we could increase the retention rates even a couple %.... blah blah blah.

Well, as I've said, increasing the retention rate would be easy. Get rid of my ability to get 51-day alt account and 30 days on my main account, for the cost of 30 days on my main account.... Fewer temp, throw away alt accounts would result in a much higher retention rate of the actual, real, new players.


Again, how, exactly?

I can see that it would result in a higher proportion of new accounts being new players, but you haven't explained any mechanism for how it will increase the actual number of new players other than saying "It just will".

How will making it harder for existing players to start new accounts make EVE more attractive to potential new players?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#32 - 2012-11-26 11:46:18 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Well, as I've said, increasing the retention rate would be easy. Get rid of my ability to get 51-day alt account and 30 days on my main account, for the cost of 30 days on my main account.... Fewer temp, throw away alt accounts would result in a much higher retention rate of the actual, real, new players.
…and everybody got that — it wasn't particularly hidden. What we don't get is the leap in logic: why would fewer temp accounts lead to more new players? It's a complete non sequitur.
Myfanwy Heimdal
Heimdal Freight and Manufacture Inc
#33 - 2012-11-26 12:35:09 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
CCP knows by IP and email addresses just exactly who is and is not a 'real' new player for thier metrics.

This is a hare-brained OP post indeed.


That's not always true. Some people have dynamic IP, meaning it changes often. Depending on your internet provider, dynamic IP might actually be the norm, as it was with my last one. The current one uses sticky dynamic IP, it still changes, just a lot less frequently. Not to mention you could always use a proxy and pretend you're someone from Ivory Coast... :P And email address? I can create 10 dummy email addresses in 10 minutes.



They have their ways.



edit: Also, player behavior can reveal a lot at that point. A new multi account probably will not run through the tutorial sequence etc.

It's actually really hard to hide things online these days. A mistake a lot of forum posters make.


One way companies, particularly bookmakers, try to track people is by a nasty insidious peice of software called ieSnare

Pam:  I wonder what my name means in Welsh?Nessa: Why?
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-11-26 12:36:22 UTC
Digital Messiah wrote:
The casualty trailer is the essence of EVE.


Heh. Indeed.

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2012-11-26 13:15:19 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

How will making it harder for existing players to start new accounts make EVE more attractive to potential new players?



It won't. Which is why CCP should stop focusing on retention numbers, which are irrelevant since the vast, vast majority of new accounts are old player alts.

I'm simply trying to point out that by focusing on the retention %, CCP is making incorrect assumptions about the new player experience.

They seem to be thinking.... holy crud only 10% of new accounts make it beyond the first 90 days.... The new player experience must really SUCK. if we could just increase those retention numbers.

Hey CCP, the reason that your retention % is soooooo low is because the vast, vast majority of new accounts are actually old players creating free (via buddy program) temporary alts to use as ore haulers, spy's, throw away gankers, etc.

You don't need to work on the new player experience, to increase the number of paid accounts. You need to work harder at attracting more actual new players into the game. How to do that? Hell, if I knew that, I'd start my own computer game company. What I do know is that the vast, vast percentage of new accounts are NOT new players, and by focusing on retention rates of those accounts, CCP is focused on the exact wrong thing.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-11-26 13:34:05 UTC
Tippia wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Well, as I've said, increasing the retention rate would be easy. Get rid of my ability to get 51-day alt account and 30 days on my main account, for the cost of 30 days on my main account.... Fewer temp, throw away alt accounts would result in a much higher retention rate of the actual, real, new players.
…and everybody got that — it wasn't particularly hidden. What we don't get is the leap in logic: why would fewer temp accounts lead to more new players? It's a complete non sequitur.


THAT IS MY POINT!

CCP is focused on the wrong metric when they look at retention rate of new accounts.

It would be super easy to increase the retention rate. Eliminate the buddy program, poof, the army of 51-day free alts goes away. New account creation tanks.

Instead of 20K new accounts a month, 15K of those old players starting accounts with NO intention that they live beyond 51 days, and 5K accounts by actual new players.... they drop to 5K actual new players. Like magic, the retention rate jumps from 10% to 50%.....

BUT, and here is my point, this drastic increase in the retention rate has done NOTHING to increase the actual subscriber base.



CCP seems to be focused on "fixing" the new player experience as a means of increasing the number of active players. They look to the dismal retention rates as proof that the new player experience is broken.

I'm saying that it is not the new player experience that is causing the insanely low retention rate. I'm saying that the problem with the retention rate is that the vast, vast majority of new accounts are old players starting alt accounts with no intention of them living beyond the 51-day free period.

Demolishar
United Aggression
#37 - 2012-11-26 13:42:11 UTC
Kiteo Hatto wrote:

The beauty of eve for me is the lore and the story to be honest, if only eve could appeal more to sci fi folk. My boss's husband was in the navy and he got interested in eve when i told him about ship classes and guns and stuff, but after doing some reading about it he concluded that he didn't need a 2nd job and that "the community looks like a bunch of trolling people with too much time on their hands".


He sounds like a very observant person. Smile
Vartan Sarkisian
Tannhauser C-Beam
Lux Collective
#38 - 2012-11-26 16:06:53 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
That suggestion will do nothing for new player retention. All it will do is reduce the number of alt accounts by old players making use of the buddy system, and reduce the number of new people coming into the game (they would only get 21 days free and then have to pay, with no benefit to the guy who invited them, who should in all honesty give them the PLEX anyway, or at least split it). Besides, didn't they already remove the restriction on how many buddy invites you can send and removed the free PLEX as reward if they sub? I seem to have heard something like that not too long ago.

Besides, I don't believe anything they do will attract new players or help retention in any considerable amount. I mean, look at upcoming expansion. Crimewatch, bounties, rebalance, new AI. Imagine yourself as a totally new player, never played EVE. Do any of these have any meaning to you? The answer is no. None of this is attractive to a new player. Now, imagine yourself as a new-ish player, you tried EVE at one point, but didn't really like it, so you quit after your trial expired. Do any of these things call you back to the game? Again, not really. The AI might, if you thought the PvE was boring. Except the AI change is so minor that it will still be just as boring, with a new healthy dose of aggravation mixed in. So, where's the carrot?

That's the thing CCP needs to focus on. Things that will attract new players, or players who tried EVE but didn't click. And no, new tutorials are NOT going to cut it. Nobody ever came into an MMO for the gameplay but stayed because the tutorial was just so darn awesome.

What they need is something massive to shake up the whole system. To make everyone, from total noobs who never tried EVE to bitter vets that quit ages ago go "Whoa, I gotta try that!" AND, and this is a biggie, it has to work, and work properly, at launch. Not be iterated over months or years. It has to work right out of the gate with minimal bugs. If they do that, we'd see a spike in subs. But rehashing old content, no matter how much it is needed (and it IS needed, I totally agree), will not bring new players in, or help to keep them.


So what kind of content WOULD make a vet want to come back or a newbie want to stay?
Elliot Vodka
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-11-26 16:16:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Elliot Vodka
I dont know what to think of this...

Why is it that people think this game is for everyone?A better question would be "Why do some people think this game is only for them?"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#40 - 2012-11-26 16:23:50 UTC
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Andski wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
I love this idea.
Hell, they could even play short trailers on tv or something.

However, the trailers as they are now are mostly misleading. It would be nice if CCP would come up with a trailer that reflects the actual gameplay and doesn't make people instantly think of "scum in space hardcore mode" when you mention eve to them.

The beauty of eve for me is the lore and the story to be honest, if only eve could appeal more to sci fi folk. My boss's husband was in the navy and he got interested in eve when i told him about ship classes and guns and stuff, but after doing some reading about it he concluded that he didn't need a 2nd job and that "the community looks like a bunch of trolling people with too much time on their hands".


yes a montage of miners and mission runners would totally attract so many players

"oh man I can mine AND kill NPCs? sign me up"



You misunderstand what I mean.

What CCP tell you in the trailers: "You can be anyone you want, you can do anything you want, universe is yours blah blah blah"
What you get when you login: "HTFU,pvp or GTFO my game you peasant carebear!11!1!1"

What CCP shows in trailers: Big organized fleet fights with cool headed FCs.
What you get in game: Blobs of the same ships and cheap tactics for "lolz" as well as clueless emoraging FCs.

What CCP shows in null trailers: Constant fighting for systems between big alliances.
What actually happens:"Let us carebear in our little corner among the sea of blues"

Now imagine if ccp actually showed gate camping, scamming and highsec ganking.....

Hope you see my point now ?

Over the last year and a half I think there was 2 or so months when I wasnt fighting a war out in null.
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