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How BF3's turn for the worse resembles EVE's

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Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2012-11-22 16:13:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiteo Hatto
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
I am suicide-ganking.

My brain hurts DC! :P
In that case:
You suicide gank a miner/freighter
>While concord is killing you(fast, others can also shoot you)
>Your victim doesnt feel like going after you directly, he sells his/her killrights
>YOU get attacked by someone who buys the rights.

MORE pew pew for you.

We're making progress here.

Okay, now, my next question is, why would I bother to gank on "DC," when I can outsource the activity fully to my gank alt(s)?

Let's introduce some constants here:

- I am indeed a person who up until the release of the next expansion has used main(s) for ganking, be it for convenience, extra damage from maxed-out skills, or whatever other reasons might exist.
- I am a person who requires main(s) to be able to move through empire with a moderate degree of freedom. For example, I do a lot of empire mercenary work and wars, and need to be able to go to any system to pursue my targets, including major hubs.


You would still use your main for ganking after update unless you were afraid that someone will gank you in return when they buy killrights. You ganking alts will now get ganked too.

I don't understand why you can't understand how this affects you. If you keep ganking and amassing bounty on you then you are that much more juicier target when it comes to buy killrights on you also more expensive.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#82 - 2012-11-22 16:17:22 UTC
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
You wouldn't use your main for ganking after update unless you were afraid that someone will gank you in return when they buy killrights.

Okay, we've established that I wouldn't use any main(s) for ganking, since it would be rational to operate under the assumption that kill rights on me will get sold, even if many victims are ignorant in regard to the system. Now...

Kiteo Hatto wrote:
You ganking alts will now get ganked too.

You mean, the ones who are outlaws, and can already be shot by anyone, at any time?

Kiteo Hatto wrote:
I don't understand why you can't understand how this affects you.

How about now?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2012-11-22 16:27:57 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
You wouldn't use your main for ganking after update unless you were afraid that someone will gank you in return when they buy killrights.

Okay, we've established that I wouldn't use any main(s) for ganking, since it would be rational to operate under the assumption that kill rights on me will get sold, even if many victims are ignorant in regard to the system. Now...

Kiteo Hatto wrote:
You ganking alts will now get ganked too.

You mean, the ones who are outlaws, and can already be shot by anyone, at any time?

Kiteo Hatto wrote:
I don't understand why you can't understand how this affects you.

How about now?



You are having to face the consequences now so you won't be using your main without second thoughts now, see, this is working now.
Your outlaw alts will get attacked regardless because you've been a bad boy.
Yes.
Moe Doobie
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2012-11-22 16:29:39 UTC
Dear Hardcorez Leet Vet Epeening PVPers,

If you geniuses would stop blueing up everything in null you wouldn't be constantly crying about not being able to insta-gank miners and freighters in High-sec;

We find it interesting how you guys do everything you can to make null snug and safe for yourselves, however then want to make high sec a warzone for PVErs.

Want to blow stuff up? Howz about you show how LEET you are and start with each other? Or are you just blatantly looking to avoid any sort of challenge and risk?

....you know? Kind of like what you accuse High-seccers of doing....


Just sayin.


- High sec sexies
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#85 - 2012-11-22 16:31:55 UTC
So the entire point of this fancy new system was to prevent me from doing 3% more damage by being forced into using characters that don't have Surgical Strike at level 5?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2012-11-22 16:34:44 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
So the entire point of this fancy new system was to prevent me from doing 3% more damage by being forced into using characters that don't have Surgical Strike at level 5?

That and actually preventing you to safely be in hisec anymore because of killrights and your bounty.....
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#87 - 2012-11-22 16:36:05 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
words

The problem with your argument is that miners were easy to kill because they made it easy. Just about every single subcap can be profitably ganked if the fit their ships like miners do. In our interdiction we had at most 15 people. Statistically speaking the exhumer was one of the safest ships to be in according to CCPs own numbers.

Two of our pvp options were removed literaly because miners refused to fit a tank on their ships.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#88 - 2012-11-22 16:38:05 UTC
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
So the entire point of this fancy new system was to prevent me from doing 3% more damage by being forced into using characters that don't have Surgical Strike at level 5?

That and actually preventing you to safely be in hisec anymore because of killrights and your bounty.....


Main(s) won't have kill rights on them. Bounties are irrelevant since they don't turn me into a suspect. Gank alts are already outlaws and can be shot by anyone, and therefore are not safe anywhere.

Once again, what does this system accomplish, aside from maybe getting CCP more alt-account sub money from people who have the integrity to gank with their main(s), but now will not do so because the cost is simply too high?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2012-11-22 16:40:12 UTC
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
So the entire point of this fancy new system was to prevent me from doing 3% more damage by being forced into using characters that don't have Surgical Strike at level 5?

That and actually preventing you to safely be in hisec anymore because of killrights and your bounty.....

I, too, have a gank alt in the oven for this reason. It will have a significantly lower clone cost than the main I would have used, and will still do about 90% of the alpha damage I enjoy right now.

Win/win for me.

CCP has no sense of humour.
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2012-11-22 16:44:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiteo Hatto
baltec1 wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
words

The problem with your argument is that miners were easy to kill because they made it easy. Just about every single subcap can be profitably ganked if the fit their ships like miners do. In our interdiction we had at most 15 people. Statistically speaking the exhumer was one of the safest ships to be in according to CCPs own numbers.

Two of our pvp options were removed literaly because miners refused to fit a tank on their ships.


Yes I agree, miners did refuse to fit more tank so they could fit 1 more MLU because they felt that hisec was "secure enough". They should have learned after a while but they didn't. In order not to lose subscribers CCP tried to fix stupid and they broke your playstyle a bit. Gankers need to whine more about mining hulls being too tanky so that 1 day CCP might nerf them a little bit.

Now at least, its safe for miners to actually undock their barges but hey we have James15 or something now ? I really don't follow the drama.

Quote:
Main(s) won't have kill rights on them. Bounties are irrelevant since they don't turn me into a suspect. Gank alts are already outlaws and can be shot by anyone, and therefore are not safe anywhere.

Once again, what does this system accomplish, aside from maybe getting CCP more alt-account sub money from people who have the integrity to gank with their main(s), but now will not do so because the cost is simply too high?


Thats the thing, your main WONT be in danger as long as you DONT gank with it in highsec. You can still use it as a scout and stuff i guess but the damage from it won't be there UNLESS you are willing to risk being shot at. Also, what you just said is a pretty big change if you are put off using your main because of the consequences.
Overall it will decrease "justforlulz" ganks but it will increase pewpew for people who will stick with ganking after update.
Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#91 - 2012-11-22 16:45:41 UTC
More bittervet moaning. Yawn.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#92 - 2012-11-22 16:49:59 UTC
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Gankers need to whine more about mining hulls being too tanky so that 1 day CCP might nerf them a little bit.

We would, but we're outnumbered by a ratio of something like 80:1. It would be an exercise in futility. If this was possible, the change wouldn't have made it through in the first place.

Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Thats the thing, your main WONT be in danger as long as you DONT gank with it in highsec. You can still use it as a scout and stuff i guess but the damage from it won't be there UNLESS you are willing to risk being shot at.

Okay, so we're in agreement that this system was created solely for the purpose of decreasing ganker damage by 2.68%, which is the difference between having and not having Surgical Strike 5.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2012-11-22 16:55:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiteo Hatto
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Gankers need to whine more about mining hulls being too tanky so that 1 day CCP might nerf them a little bit.

We would, but we're outnumbered by a ratio of something like 80:1. It would be an exercise in futility. If this was possible, the change wouldn't have made it through in the first place.

Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Thats the thing, your main WONT be in danger as long as you DONT gank with it in highsec. You can still use it as a scout and stuff i guess but the damage from it won't be there UNLESS you are willing to risk being shot at.

Okay, so we're in agreement that this system was created solely for the purpose of decreasing ganker damage by 2.68%, which is the difference between having and not having Surgical Strike 5.


No, its not ~3%, its a whole extra ship there as well as the difference of your main not having free travel while in highsec.

If you want free travel in highsec you will need to "behave", you outlaw alts are already bad so the change doesnt apply to them as much other than making it more incentive for others to attack them because of bounty AFTER you have violence'd someone's spaceship.

Bounty change is more significant for lowsec dwellers.
Killrights change is more significant to those who gank with their main knowing that the victim isnt likely to wardec them and they can always go grind security back up.
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
#94 - 2012-11-22 16:55:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
WAH.

Honestly, if you consider ganking good PvP you must live a very shallow life.

SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN!! http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schalac
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#95 - 2012-11-22 16:58:16 UTC
I declare this thread 'a reality free zone'.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#96 - 2012-11-22 16:59:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
No, its not ~3%, its a whole extra ship there as well as the difference of your main not having free travel while in highsec.

The main is replaced by another alt that has the same skills (it doesn't take a whole lot to fly a destroyer for maximum damage), aside from Surgical Strike 5. A skill that can easily be trained, by the way. So, if I go from ganking with my main, which needs freedom of movement in empire, to ganking with an alt, which has the same capabilities, but does not require freedom of movement since it's already -10, what exactly am I losing?

Kiteo Hatto wrote:
you outlaw alts are already bad so the change doesnt apply to them as much other than making it more incentive for others to attack them because of bounty AFTER you have violence'd someone's spaceship.

You mean the bounties they already have? Granted, currently you'd need to pod them, whereas after the patch you will not. Still bounties hardly add any more incentive to attack a paper-thin target that's already being shot by NPC entities. The alts are already constantly attacked, by both players and NPCs, and bounties won't have much of an effect.

Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Bounty change is more significant for lowsec dwellers.
Killrights change is more significant to those who gank with their main knowing that the victim isnt likely to wardec them and they can always go grind security back up.

And now, literally no one will gank with their mains. This is going to have no net impact on ganking, mind you. The people who gank with mains today (for whatever reasons they might have; e-honor? I don't know) will switch to using alts. What does this system add to the game, aside from a very slightly higher number of active subs?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2012-11-22 17:04:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiteo Hatto
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
No, its not ~3%, its a whole extra ship there as well as the difference of your main not having free travel while in highsec.

The main is replaced by another alt that has the same skills (it doesn't take a whole lot to fly a destroyer for maximum damage), aside from Surgical Strike 5. A skill that can easily be trained, by the way. So, if I go from ganking with my main, which needs freedom of movement in empire, to ganking with an alt, which has the same capabilities, but does not require freedom of movement since it's already -10, what exactly am I losing?


You are now saying that you wouldnt have main attack things along with your alts, but its always was one or the other ? As far as i can tell you are negative security on DC.

For like....i don't know what time, you are losing ability to FREELY travel in highsec, BECAUSE you can't use your non pirate main in ganks. You will become a more potential target because everyone can attack your alts.....not just the victim who you blew up if you were on the main.

Really, its a pretty big difference.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#98 - 2012-11-22 17:11:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
You are now saying that you wouldnt have main attack things along with your alts, but its always was one or the other ? As far as i can tell you are negative security on DC.

For like....i don't know what time, you are losing ability to FREELY travel in highsec, BECAUSE you can't use your non pirate main in ganks. You will become a more potential target because everyone can attack your alts.....not just the victim who you blew up if you were on the main.

Really, its a pretty big difference.

What part of "gank alts are outlaws and can already be attacked by anyone, anywhere" do you not understand?

I feel like I've made my argument here. If you continue pushing the same ignorant views on me, I am going to lose my interest. Learn game mechanics. Go out and gank, so you know what that entails as well. I'm going to be back later today, and if you've said anything fresh or interesting, I'll reply.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2012-11-22 17:15:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiteo Hatto
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
You are now saying that you wouldnt have main attack things along with your alts, but its always was one or the other ? As far as i can tell you are negative security on DC.

For like....i don't know what time, you are losing ability to FREELY travel in highsec, BECAUSE you can't use your non pirate main in ganks. You will become a more potential target because everyone can attack your alts.....not just the victim who you blew up if you were on the main.

Really, its a pretty big difference.

What part of "gank alts are outlaws and can already be attacked by anyone, anywhere" do you not understand?


What part of "gank alts will be attacked more often on sight due to new bounty system and clearer status indicator(because lets be honest, the current aggro/kill rights are confusing as **** and not everyone reads about them)" and "can't use main as recklessly as before" do you not understand ?

PS. I've made my argument and i too lost interest, you are just as stubborn to argue against as Tippia, its almost soul crushing and now im off to do my uni work :)
stoicfaux
#100 - 2012-11-22 17:24:05 UTC
Admiral Mackswell wrote:

Low sec is awesome. The people who call low sec home are the real pvpers of the game. But it is broken. Nobody wants to limit themselves and go -10. It wouldnt be so bad if it wasnt such a B**** to gain sec status. Id be there right now pew pewing away. They need to do something to this sec status system to make it not such a punishment to do what this game was intended for..pvp. I personally feel they should do away with the sec status and just add to your bounty when you do things that are against the "law".

With the crimewatch changes, would you be willing to say that low-sec is being brought to high sec?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.