EVE General Discussion

Once again, that had nothing to do with losing 20% of there staff.

I suspect your just trolling though.

That's a matter of opinion.

Did the fallout cost CCP dearly? Yes! That is a FACT. Arguably, we're still recovering from it.

But, did it happen because of WiS, or something else? That's where opinions differ. And you know what they say, opinions are like ***holes, everyone has one and most of them stink. I can only tell you how I felt about Incarna, and how people I know and talked to felt about it.

Me, personally, I felt (and still do) that WiS is essential for long-term EVE survival. Not even the slightest doubt in my mind about that, and this has been reinforced by the last 3 expansions. Think about it. Crucible, Inferno, Retribution. All of these were 100% FiS focused. What happened? Did we get a lot more people in the game? Nope! Still didn't beat concurrent user record set a good long while ago, and I'm guessing we still didn't reach 500k subs, or CCP would have been shouting that from the rooftops. As you can see, the FiS is "tapped out". To keep the game growing, they need a new mechanic, and that means WiS. The catch is, it has to be a *working* WiS system with actual gameplay!

And the fallout after Incarna? Personally, I was badly disappointed with Incarna patch itself. But the cash shop and the leaked internal memo was what did t. And yeah, before you ask, I did quit the game until after Crucible. But NOT because of Incarna or WiS! I quit because of the cash shop and what CCP was planning to do according to the memo. And I'll wager that this was the cause for many (most?) others as well. Incarna was disappointing, but by itself it wasn't sufficient to result in such a meltdown.

So, bald faced lie? Not quite. Just a difference of opinion. Though the universal consensus seems to be that Incarna as a whole was just badly botched. A series of poor judgment calls resulting in an ultimate SNAFU. Starting with scrapping all that working stuff they showed and starting fresh with creating a new engine. I understand that at the time it probably seemed like a good choice to them, but they just bit off more than they could chew and it took them a while to admit it even to themselves.

Though arguably they didn't learn from it at all, because right now they're fighting a 3-front war: maintaining EVE, trying to get Dust not to blow and keeping WoD from becoming total vaporware. Meanwhile, all but the biggest companies never spread their resources over so many fronts. But whether this was another SNAFU we won't know until we see the Dust launch and what happens in the months following that.

Trion is making Planetside/Dust-like shooter (Defiance) with release in April, they are going to publish f2p MMO strategy next year, they've released *huge* expansion for Rift - not to mention they've already expanded the game beforehand with much more content during last year than I've seen in EVE since 2010.

SOE is doing something like that as well - released Planetside 2, support multiple games, develop Everquest Next.

Funcom released somewhat interesting TSW having Anarchy Online and Conan.

I'll add to this list Turbine (they successfully support and expand LOTRO + couple of other games) when they'll start to develop new games.

Truth is CCP is weaksauce compared to almost every other developer. At least I don't know any other company which could release tech demo with 4 rooms and avatars and call that "expansion". Also I don't know any other company which could stop development / expansion of their primary "cash cow" just to add couple of questionable games to their portfolio.

Little misleading.

Trion was actually only making Defiance while operating Rift.

The End of Nations game, or whatever it's called, was structured different and wasn't actually being made by trion; even though trion was responcible for the game. I think they might have only been filling the publisher role with the 3rd game.

In fact, the studio that was developing that game just went under, and the game was picked up by trion and development moved into thier own studio.

I think Trion is much bigger than CCP, as well as they have the backing of a rather large television network. Whether or not it's significant financial backing I don't know, but I do not discount the fact that scyfy being involved with Defiance can have huge impact on investor confidence.

People are much more likely to give a company a bunch of money for a game when they have a network that lots of people watch -crazy I know-, making a TV show that ties into the game. As apposed to a company that has a niche mmo, wanting to make a console shooter that's connected to it.

Scyfy reaches tens of millions of people.

All that can also be said to explain why CCP would make Dust a PS3 exclusive.
Sony is plastering Dust514 all over EVERYTHING. Defiance isn't getting the same kind of treatment from either Microsoft or Sony, they're getting it from a television network instead.

I'm not sure I would say that Sony and the PS3 reaches as many people as scyfy reaches.

OK, to a degree, I agree with you.

But Trion doesn't really work. They finished Rift, pushed it out in early 2011. And Defiance wasn't announced until later (they made the deal with the series in 2010, but didn't announce it was Defiance until after Rift release). They did not work on Rift and Defiance at the same time, like CCP is working Dust and WoD. I also have doubts about Defiance April release, I know they said show and game will match, and show was already announced, but I just don't think they'll make it. And if they do, it might cost them, because the game ain't ready. Even if they do release in April, that's a 2-year window between Rift (Mar 2011) and Defiance (Apr 2013). Rift expansions could have been done on skeleton crew, so those don't really count.



Sony doesn't exactly have a good track record lately, especially with MMOs. Pirates of the Burning Sea, DC Universe, etc.



Again, not at the same time. Anarchy Online was early 2000s, AoC May 2008. TSW only came out this summer. As a general rule, most gaming companies don't work 2-3 games at once. Nor do they attempt to link up 2 of those games together, something CCP is banking heeavily on.



In a way? Yes. But I think they screwed up a bit on their modus operandi. Instead of doing 2 free expansions per year, they should be doing 1 a year and paid, or one every 2 years and paid. They're making too many changes to the game, too often, resulting in too many bugs. And since chances come so fast, they're usually poorly thought-out and poorly executed (see what happened with ISK generation from FW this summer). As such, I don't even think it's CCP's fault per se that they're doing so poorly, they're just whipping themselves into a frenzy of "push out this one, fix it up a bit, forget about it, push out the next one, rinse, repeat". Frankly, I'm amazed they haven't totally gone bonkers yet.

As such, EVE maintenance can't really be seen as equal to Rift maintenance or LOTRO maintenance. Those games don't see major changes like EVE does every 6 months. Takes a lot more manpower to keep EVE from splitting at the seams and spilling all over the street. And add to that the push for Dust, which is an entirely new hardware (console) and linking it with EVE (which requires heavy work on both games) and WoD still out there?

Though to be totally honest with you, I don't think they're even working on WoD. I mean, how long since it was announced? 2006? Full production supposedly started in 2008? And now we're looking 2013 in the teeth and so far we've seen what about WoD? Camera flying around some empty streets, a tiny box maybe 200m square in size? No avatars, no NPCs, no gameplay? After 4+ years in "full production"? Reminds me of Darkfall.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/222960/?snr=1_7_suggest__13

Trion wasn't working on what?

Although recent expansions have been significant and have added many things, most of those things were solutions to old problems. There is nothing really new in EVE from the avatars of Incursion, and that for two long years.

I mean, it's fine for old and broken things fixed, but are old, people who subscribe to them was already signed, but nobody is going to start playing in 2013 because EVE has things already had some years ago and was broken and now it works.

Although missing the CSM says something of the December meeting, I'm pretty sure the big news will be more SOV and more POS and back to old things that do not work or are obsolete and fixing them will not attract any new player.

EVE reminds me of an old actress who returns to the stage and believes people will pay to see her do the same role as always. Maybe the first few days it work, but in the end everyone will see that it is old, repeated, and that there are younger girls in the theater next door and wear clothes as cool as Guild Wars 2 armor.

Totally agree. But the question is, after these 3 expansions (Crusible->Retribution), are they done fixing the old things? I think not, not by a long shot. My personal pet peeve is drones. Mission mechanics have been ludicrously outdated when they were added, and they're laughable now. Now they're thinking of fixing PoSes supposedly next expansion, and maybe doing things with off-grid boosting and stuff? Are these needed? Yes, absolutely. But will this bring new players to the game, and make the old players bored/burned out stay? Not likely.

I contend that FiS stuff, even though I agree it is absolutely needed, is not going to be sufficient to keep EVE alive long-term. If FiS stuff brought in people, we would have seen a SHARP increase right at Crucible, that would shoot past pre-Incarna numbers and go up and up and up. Because yes, frankly FiS improvements to the game have been fantastic. Not on the same colossal scale as Trinity was, for example, but close. But we haven't seen any such increase.



Yes, exactly. It's needed, badly needed, but it's not going to make anyone not already playing EVE to suddenly jump up and start playing EVE. Though I feel some players are still maturing into EVE gamer stage. Some folks weren't emotionally ready for EVE a few years back might be ready now. But this new willingness has to do with personality development of the individual and not the direction game development has taken.



Good analogy. What CCP is doing with EVE is the equivalent of waking up every morning and applying the makeup. And it is absolutely needed, because without makeup, EVE, at her age, is...well...eeeew! BUT it's not going to change anything, in the long run, as the game gets older. We need something new to get people interested. And doing makeup in a slightly different way, or perhaps a new haircut isn't going to do it. That's where WiS comes in. It's more akin to full-body replacement rather than makeup or cosmetic surgery (expansions).

Actually James,

What I think is that some of you people keep throwing out the dip in subs after incarna without actually throwing in ALL of the reasons for it.

And that you in particular stated that reasons for CCP's restructuring, was a "matter of opinion."


Did CCP not see a rise in subscription numbers in 2010?
What was CCP promoting in 2010? Could it be WiS?



And no,
Incarna was not the reason for CCP restructuring. They would have ended up in the same boat whether or not people left over THE GREED IS GOOD NEWLETTER.

It added to already existing problems, it was not the cause of them.

Not everything is a frigging conspiracy.

Yes, it was WiS. Trouble is, the things they were promoting, and what we got, were two very different beasts.

Remember old 2008 footage? Walking into a bar, walking around stations, board games, done with (I believe) Unreal engine? That's what people expected. Remember the "Future Vision" trailer from pre-Incarna FanFest? Pretty cool. And then they released...that thing. And then NEX store. And then "Greed is Good" memo. It's hardly shocking what happened next.

And like I keep saying, even though I quit in disgust for the next 7 months or so, kudos to CCP for managing a potential Titanic-like event. Honestly, how many MMOs have we seen flop because of less? Quite a few. The mere fact EVE is still around and kicking is a huge testament of what CCP can do if you light a fire under their butts!



I dunno. I mean, restructuring is one thing, but laying off 20% of employees (120 out of 600)? When you have EVE on the table, And Dust. And WoD? Doesn't seem like a good time to cut 20% of your work force, when compared to a few years ago your work load likely tripled.



But don't you think WiS shouldn't have been left behind like it was in 2011? Especially if it wasn't the cause of the turmoil? But it was (left behind, I mean). Perhaps because it was the cause after all? Why else would they completely abandon something for 1.5 years and running that they spent the previous 3 (2-4?) years working on almost exclusively? And something they insisted was the vision for EVE from day one (full Sci-Fi sim, not just spaceships). Especially when it was so close - engine was done, all they had to do was start iteration and add content.

Like I said, too many coincidences.

Bottom line though - none of this matters. CCP will eventually have to start on WiS again. Or watch the game continue to stagnate and hope for a miracle. But that's really the textbook definition of insanity - doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. The last 3 expansions were almost 100% FiS. Game did not grow by leaps and bounds. Will another 3 FiS expansions change anything? Personally I doubt it. Like it or not, the future is WiS.