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Pulling the Plug on WiS

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Author
oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#321 - 2012-11-27 18:25:41 UTC
Nick Rich wrote:
All the same, I would like to repeat once again that it is time to create one CCP Official separate topic on Incarna where discussions would take place with the developers. And gave to understand is there a future Incarna, and if so, when it will be, what is planned in the first place, what points they would like to raise, think of them by players. For many, it's important. And it must be important by the developers.



do we really have to look up all the threads made by devs and players ,to show you ,that that is already tried?

R.S.I2014

Nick Rich
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#322 - 2012-11-27 19:00:29 UTC
you did not understand me, I do not mean a simple new topic for discussion, I mean a complete relationship between the players and the developers, not 10-20-30 pages of questions, fantasies, discussion, debate, and one replica of CCP

Sorry for my english, but I do not use a translator, because I want to talk to you in the same language.

Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#323 - 2012-11-27 21:35:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Arduemont wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:

Not really.


She pointed out that your entire argument can be used on the opposite side of the agenda, that's what she did there. Generally that's a sign that your argument isn't really an argument at all.


Not really. She changed what I said to something completely different in a very ad hoc way of implying her argument could be reversed and make sense.

Example, WiS is alien to EVE. FiS is not. She implied you can substitute one for the other and imply both are equal. Not so.

They don't even have equal importance in a more day to day sense. One could throw Incarna in the trash and still have a functional game tested and proven to be a viable product to sell. In the reverse if you deleted FiS and made the game only WiS, you wouldn't have a game at all. Definitely not with its current minimal depth and feature list.

The argument comes down to telling the players of EVE that they are in the wrong for wanting EVE to stay EVE and not become 50% of the game in it's mid life where a new untested & unfinished layer of WiS becomes the remaining 50%. Along with that, the development time required to even get Incarna to that equal 50% would mean the EVE playerbase is paying a sub with content relegated to upgrades and improvement to the WiS portion.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#324 - 2012-11-27 21:57:53 UTC
Nick Rich wrote:
All the same, I would like to repeat once again that it is time to create one CCP Official separate topic on Incarna where discussions would take place with the developers. And gave to understand is there a future Incarna, and if so, when it will be, what is planned in the first place, what points they would like to raise, think of them by players. For many, it's important. And it must be important by the developers.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2023393

It exists already. Doesn't have good news if you want animated yiff sessions between missions, but they've told you what the near future of WIS is - namely, there isn't one.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#325 - 2012-11-28 02:21:57 UTC
Ghazu wrote:
Right now, the issue is that we seem to be clamoring for something unknown. The "I want avatars so bad just give me anything with avatars" and the "avatars are the only hope for eve look at the competition", are dangerous and wrong, as it would just make CCP believe they can just serve up another plate of no gameplay and be done with it. Eve is an anomaly, it is still live and kicking due to the fact that it has not fallen into the me-too MMO models of all those Korean games. We don't need anymore laughably bad ideas from the player base. What we need now is tangible words on gameplay concepts from the devs, they've stated that the prototyping is complete and I hope we are nearing the time when us non-CSM the general public can see what you got, hopefully by fanfest.

By tangible I mean:

Doing activity A players can acquire items B which can be sold on the market and will be used in the bill of materials of these modules.
Players conduct combat and harvest by using these suit modules D, performance is based on skill sets E

If the devs tell us what their vision is, it is very likely that there will be overwhelming support. This is the kind of stuff that will get most of us excited, as opposed to the meaningless 2005 footage where there were a bunch of dudes emoting each other in a room and durhurrr exotic dancers or new pants and tattoos.


I'm sorry, but I've seen people suggest on two different occaisions that someone voicing a contrary opinion to there's was doing something "dangerous."

You do realize this a game, a forum for a game, players are posting their opinions and making suggestions which may or may not be ignored in part or in full right? Either way, I think dangerous is about as over the top as suggesting the computer you are on is going to detonate with a 100 megaton blast and destroy the city you live in because you just posted.

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oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#326 - 2012-11-28 03:42:02 UTC
Nick Rich wrote:
you did not understand me, I do not mean a simple new topic for discussion, I mean a complete relationship between the players and the developers, not 10-20-30 pages of questions, fantasies, discussion, debate, and one replica of CCP




i have already a complete relationship , i am married with the most lovely wife i know.Blink

Discussing stuff with the devs here on the forums is good enough,if they want to discuss

R.S.I2014

Arduemont
The State of War.
#327 - 2012-11-28 06:12:35 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:

Not really. She changed what I said to something completely different in a very ad hoc way of implying her argument could be reversed and make sense.


She really didn't change it completely. In fact, she hardly changed it at all.

WiS may be a small part of Eve, and the FiS part is more important because of sheer volume. You could get rid of the Incarna part and it wouldn't be missed much, but that's because there is no content in it. That's what we're asking for here... content.

FiS is already fleshed out. It works, and has enough content to keep the player-base who want FiS stuff happy indefinitely. And if you don't think it does then your probably playing the wrong game. If you think putting development time into something new is somehow wrong, then you could argue that we will never need any more FiS features either... Don't need anything new, right?

Also, you don't know what the players want, your are just saying that they want FiS because it suits your argument. We, the players, want WiS. And there are a lot of us who want it. I would wager a very large amount that more of us want it than wanted a FW upgrade, which a very small portion of the player-base uses.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf

KrakizBad
Section 8.
#328 - 2012-11-28 08:00:27 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
You could get rid of the Incarna part and it wouldn't be missed much,


Arduemont wrote:
We, the players, want WiS.

OK then. We, the players, have been pretty clear about what we want. It's not emoting at each other.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#329 - 2012-11-28 08:09:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Axe
Arduemont wrote:
Also, you don't know what the players want, your are just saying that they want FiS because it suits your argument. We, the players, want WiS. And there are a lot of us who want it. I would wager a very large amount that more of us want it than wanted a FW upgrade, which a very small portion of the player-base uses.


See, the question isn't "do players want WiS?", the question is "do players want WiS more than FiS?". CCP is betting pretty firmly that the answer is "no" (hint: they're right). You simply cannot hold this conversation in a vacuum - whether CCP can fully realize WiS in any kind of acceptable form without compromising FiS has to be a prime consideration, and they've already said they cannot, so they 're not going forward as of now.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#330 - 2012-11-28 08:15:53 UTC
KrakizBad wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
You could get rid of the Incarna part and it wouldn't be missed much,


Arduemont wrote:
We, the players, want WiS.

OK then. We, the players, have been pretty clear about what we want. It's not emoting at each other.


Tend to agree with that, though I have no issue with the ability to do so. Salutes: Fist to heart, crisp brow salute, etc.. but, as a function of something rather than a vanity emote. Sort of like how the pilot can sit in a chair by interacting with it.

Speaking of emotes, iirc Carbon doesn't have the ability to support them as it was designed and implemented in EVE. This is I think why WoD had to branch off of EVEs Carbon framework in another direction and I'm fine with that. WoD is a vanity game. Don't argue with that, it's Vampires.

Anyway, Carbon has the ability to do functional animations like sitting on the couch in CQ based on player interaction, but as I understand it, it doesn't have any support for text input translating to animations like common emotes in other MMOs. CCP never intended this for EVE, and they stated as much back when they were calling WiS Ambulation, or in early Incarna previews. Can't recall exactly when.

WiS was always intended to be an interactive environment, with games and activities for players in which their characters focused on interactive objects and avatar animations were directly associated with that interaction.

Personally, I hope that doesn't change. Let WoD keep their Carbon Framework model, and continue developing EVEs Carbon Framework as it was originally intended to be developed, with required additions and changes for the exploration missions that have been suggested.

That is the direction WiS should take, and as Ambulation turned to Incarna, turned to WiS, so should WiS as a perspective evolve into something else.

I mentioned I felt this way earlier; that WiS does not encompass any longer what the evolution of Ambulation and Incarna should be. It also leads many players to expect 'Emoting in Stations,' rather than projected or potential development, when they try to identify with the concept on a basic level.



zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#331 - 2012-11-28 08:20:58 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
Also, you don't know what the players want, your are just saying that they want FiS because it suits your argument. We, the players, want WiS. And there are a lot of us who want it. I would wager a very large amount that more of us want it than wanted a FW upgrade, which a very small portion of the player-base uses.


See, the question isn't "do players want WiS?", the question is "do players want WiS more than FiS?". CCP is betting pretty firmly that the answer is "no" (hint: they're right). You simply cannot hold this conversation in a vacuum - whether CCP can fully realize WiS in any kind of acceptable form without compromising FiS has to be a prime consideration, and they've already said they cannot, so they 're not going forward as of now.


You're argument is flawed in that you are generalizing players sharing your own position with regard to an argument which clearly has 2 or more sides as represented by a small portion of the playerbase. You can't possibly argue effectively on that logic, when you are suggesting the people you are arguing with share your position with regard to the subject of the argument.

Only if they were lying, would that be possible.

On the other hand, CCP does do surveys and I'm sure this was included in them, and that some portion of the playerbase responded one way or another, so they probably have some information to base these decisions on. Of course, that can easily be outweighed by the threat of massive bad press like the Jita Statue Murder.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#332 - 2012-11-28 08:34:02 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
You're argument is flawed in that you are generalizing players sharing your own position with regard to an argument which clearly has 2 or more sides as represented by a small portion of the playerbase. You can't possibly argue effectively on that logic, when you are suggesting the people you are arguing with share your position with regard to the subject of the argument.

Only if they were lying, would that be possible.


I'm not arguing any point, I'm telling you what is literally happening with WiS right now. I'll link CCP Unifex's exact quote:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2023395#post2023395

CCP Unifex wrote:
The result of that planning highlighted that right now, we do not have the time or people to build this without impacting what we can deliver for our players who are flying in space. To create this will mean a considerable investment which will take time to put together and also a new focus for us just at a time when we as a company have another new game coming into the EVE Universe (yes DUST 514, I’m looking at you).

So, all that being said, we have a great concept to expand the EVE Universe but now is not the right time for us to take that step. It’s a step I very much want to take but I want to take it when it won’t mean removing developers and focus from flying in space.


That's about as straightforward as he can get without cartoons. You may think it's dishonest of me to frame the WiS argument in real terms (i.e. is it worth taking manpower away from other areas of the game?), but that's the reality of the situation, clearly outlined by CCP Unifex right there. They don't have the manpower to give WiS the attention it deserves without taking away from other areas, and that's not something they're willing to do. It doesn't exactly take a Nostradamus type to figure out WHY they're not willing to do that.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#333 - 2012-11-28 08:37:30 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Did you happen to read anything about the design goals of Eve Online before you signed up? What about Eve Online's history? Can you think of another MMO with a history this rich? Probably not.

That history is courtesy of the original intended demographic, as evidenced by Eve's design philosophy.


You mean the stories and rich history of scamming and ganking 'carebears'?

Whether you accept it or not, you need them more than they need you. They won't miss being ganked, but you'll miss ganking them.

Whether they accept it or not, carebears need the people you call "nutjob psychopaths." That's because Eve was designed to work that way.

If a person quits over losing at Eve, I won't miss their whining anymore than they'll miss getting ganked by me.

That seems pretty quid pro quo to me.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Evelyn Meiyi
Corvidae Trading and Holding
#334 - 2012-11-28 08:50:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Evelyn Meiyi
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Just to answer a couple of points:

  • Team Avatar doesn't exist anymore. As per the thread linked earlier our prototype has been shelved for the time being. Please read both my post and the one from CCP Unifex for the full picture on what's happening with WIS development at the moment. The team members are off working on a whole bunch of stuff from the launcher, through to new game features.

While it's a shame to hear this (Team Avatar were the 'unsung heroes' of EvE, in my opinion, for keeping the lights on and giving it a shot), I can certainly understand why the choice was made.

I've been working for about a month or so on a dungeon-crawler. While the game itself is functional and playable, I've had to learn the sometimes-painful truth that desire must give way to practicality, and most of the 'really cool' features I want to include have been put on a waiting list for lack of time.

Quote:
That's about as straightforward as he can get without cartoons. You may think it's dishonest of me to frame the WiS argument in real terms (i.e. is it worth taking manpower away from other areas of the game?), but that's the reality of the situation, clearly outlined by CCP Unifex right there. They don't have the manpower to give WiS the attention it deserves without taking away from other areas, and that's not something they're willing to do. It doesn't exactly take a Nostradamus type to figure out WHY they're not willing to do that.


Bingo. If you take a minute to think back to World of Warcraft, one of the reasons players didn't get the much-requested 'old-world' flying was the sheer scale of the work involved. Blizzard literally had to re-build the game world from the ground up.

And so it goes with WIS. The technology is there, the prototype works, and CCP has a fairly solid idea of how to proceed. Right now, they just don't have the time or the resources, both of which are needed to avoid another Incarna.
Nick Rich
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#335 - 2012-11-28 09:03:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Nick Rich
I'll try to write clear, with replays because I do not know very well English. I am not against space exploration and space crafts, and any improvements, I just want to support those who for Incarna, as pent up, so for a long time does not change. Discussions with developers is not as complete as we would like. Quite a lot of those created on Incarna, a lot of arguments and disputes, but almost nothing specific they are not, or is, but only distant blurry replica. Flying in space are made and completed long ago, recently issued only patches. The patch is not content. But look, what arguments and discussions are about the little things in space. We discuss everything loud intrusive. But, as regards space. If Incarna not come up if an Incarna no one ever said, if it were not promised .... But it came up with its promised long done, done, done so little that even insulting. The fact that there is now a beautiful quarter, very detailed, I have it turned on at all times. But that's it! It was written that the team Avatar is working WIS, then that does not work, because we need to focus on the space flight. But why? Why is not promised, but just decided to change the current practice? But do not do what needs to be done long ago? After all the players want! Long wanted and waited. And you CCP can not even imagine how it hurts to read about that development is suspended, or allowing increased. Since I'm not good at English but tried to read all the threads, I realized how people are fighting fiercely for what she still came out in all its glory!. Yes, there are those who are screaming that they do not need it. So what then? Will be guided by them? After walking around the stations, this niche is unoccupied, this feature is for you to CCP, there is no game more beautiful than Eve, but it lacks the Incarna. I love this game, and I hope that in the near future there will be at least some sort of information about it. I often repeat, excuse me, I would want that all was clear what I mean. Incarna should be, or not to strive for.

EDIT:
The above was written, if I understand correctly - what we want? I can not answer for everyone, but I can say what I need. Now test server removed DEDcomplexes. Here it is the first possible step to start doing that for so long waiting. Of hangar I mentioned there that can do so that players began their adventures from there, well, there is a meeting in the hangars and CQ. And here is where they can interact with? In DED complexes. As the video from Fanfest. In large areas to fight the enemy, long time to go to the goal, to search and produce modules and enhancements to their ships. Here it can be the starting point of the room, which is already tired.

Sorry for my english, but I do not use a translator, because I want to talk to you in the same language.

Borascus
#336 - 2012-11-28 09:33:47 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:

That's about as straightforward as he can get without cartoons. You may think it's dishonest of me to frame the WiS argument in real terms (i.e. is it worth taking manpower away from other areas of the game?), but that's the reality of the situation, clearly outlined by CCP Unifex right there. They don't have the manpower to give WiS the attention it deserves without taking away from other areas, and that's not something they're willing to do. It doesn't exactly take a Nostradamus type to figure out WHY they're not willing to do that.


CCP's Current Recruitment Page

Looking through the list there doesn't seem to be much recruitment for WiS either, however the Studio Manager position in Newcastle UK does look like DUST's Engine is getting some new recruits. Studio Manager - Newcastle Job Spec

How cool does the Shanghai Senior Animator position look though?
Arduemont
The State of War.
#337 - 2012-11-28 14:26:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
KrakizBad wrote:

OK then. We, the players, have been pretty clear about what we want. It's not emoting at each other.


Agreed, we want WiS content. What exactly is your point?

Snow Axe wrote:
See, the question isn't "do players want WiS?", the question is "do players want WiS more than FiS?". CCP is betting pretty firmly that the answer is "no" (hint: they're right). You simply cannot hold this conversation in a vacuum - whether CCP can fully realize WiS in any kind of acceptable form without compromising FiS has to be a prime consideration, and they've already said they cannot, so they 're not going forward as of now.


That question, "do players want WiS more than FiS?", is largely irrelevant. Because we already have FiS, so it's not an "either/or" choice. We can have both. As for compromising, they are already doing that at the expensive of taking Eve in the direction of new things. Rehashing old content is fine whilst it needs it, but they can't keep doing it without everyone getting bored.

Besides, if we ran a poll asking whether players wanted to put a small team to slowly work towards WiS content, or not. Your answer would probably be yes, they probably do. Three devs working on it wont detract hugely from FiS anyway. Im not holding this debate in a vacuum. I am considering whether people want it or not, and I strongly believe they do. Check through all the WiS related threads and count the fors and againsts.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf

Koen L
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#338 - 2012-11-28 15:01:47 UTC
So no more dressing barbies and spin them inside a room with a door.
Take out the code, not worth maintaining it.
Play second life, if you liked it.

♫ When your ship gets blown to bits ♪ ♫ And you lose your Faction fits ♪ \☻/ Don't worry ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ Be Happy \☻/

Davon Mandra'thin
Consultech Intermediary Services
#339 - 2012-11-28 15:24:51 UTC
CCP Unifex wrote:
we do not have the time or people to build this without impacting what we can deliver for our players who are flying in space.


Except they managed to make a pretty cool little prototype with only two devs. I would happily leave those two on it over the course of a year to see what they could do. Would that really impact on FiS that much? I doubt it.
Djana Libra
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#340 - 2012-11-28 15:40:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Djana Libra
Shepard Book wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
For those of you interested in WiS content, like myself, you will be disheartened to find out that it seems CCP have pulled the plug on using Carbon as the engine for the World of Darkness game.


Good catch and horrible news. I feel like you are failing us CCP leadership, and CSM until I see any kind of commitment towards WIS content. I really feel bad for the WOD team as well. This had to crush them.


Hmm ur a rare breed then, about the entire eve community clashed on CCP to stop working on WIS and get back to the core of the game, which they fortunatly did.

They just have to remove the room along with the door.