These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Missions & Complexes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Exploration, Farming and a fix

Author
Eight Two
SWIFT Inc.
#1 - 2012-11-21 11:49:17 UTC
So I have recently gotten back into Eve and the first thing I wanted to try was exploration, seeing that Complexes were moved to the scanning system.

I'm enjoying the experience but I have found a couple of issues, mainly related to farming.

DED 3&4/10s offer huge rewards, in fact huge enough to attract swarms of people farming these sites in high-sec space. As with all Eve professions, if you factor in risk-reward that system is terribly off as any toon able to properly fit and fly T3 cruisers can generate insane rewards for little to no effort and almost zero risk apart from the odd suicide gank because the complexes feature trigger/overseer systems that effectivly allow for running a site with zero effort, thus encouraging heavy farming.

What's worse, new players looking into starting exploration find themselves permanently engaged in an arms-race they can not win until they themselves get into T3 cruisers and make the problem worse.

In addition the huge income that flying T3s in highsec can generate effectivley make moving to low-,nullsec or WH space pointless as the risk is higher for almost the same reward as in highsec.

My question is, is this system working as intended?

I honestly doubt it, so here's a suggestion for a fix:

1.) Move 1&2/10s to the scanning system, remove 4/10s permanently from highsec space. Decrease the chance of high value faction loot dropping a bit to discourage professional farming.

2.) Lock Acceleration Gates for anything higher than T2 and Faction Cruisers. High-end equipment belongs to high-end space, there's a reason why there's no Caps running lvl4s in highsec, there should be no reason for T3s running sites in highsec space.

3.) Adjust trigger mechanics. What's the point in having 2-5 rooms per site only to allow players to kill the triggers/overseers and move on without bothering with the site. A single room with a container and no NPCs would do that job just as fine. Running a site should actually include running a site.

4.) Adjust profession sites in highsec space: radars offer great rewards whereas going for magnometric sites is next to pointless most of the time. Maybe even include Ladar Combat sites to make them useful.

As with any MMO, certain profession systems need constant adjustments to player behaviour to maintain and encourage gameplay over mindless farming, at least imo. Especially in systems where higher SP usually always beats lower SP in PvE.

With the upcoming Tiericide in mind, the above will allow a competent, specialized player to generate enough income for the effort to afford buying a PLEX while encouraging actually running a site and working for loot instead of flying in, pressing F1 and auto-win.

For those still reading, thanks for taking the time, for the others:

TL;DR - Discourage Farming, Turn into proper Profession.

I am now open for suggestions or to be flamed and forum-warriored to death Cool
Hypercake Mix
#2 - 2012-11-21 12:10:40 UTC
The rewards would be less insane if players would stop paying insane for the rewards.

Tech 3 is flown for exploration to scan and shoot competently in the same hull.

... and yet another nerf high-sec thread.
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2012-11-21 12:21:00 UTC
Eight Two wrote:
1.) Move 1&2/10s to the scanning system, remove 4/10s permanently from highsec space. Decrease the chance of high value faction loot dropping a bit to discourage professional farming.

I agree with moving DED 1 and 2 to the scanning system, but disagree with removing DED 4 completely. I'd rather opt for greatly reducing their chance to spawn in highsec, but still being having some chance.

Eight Two wrote:
2.) Lock Acceleration Gates for anything higher than T2 and Faction Cruisers. High-end equipment belongs to high-end space, there's a reason why there's no Caps running lvl4s in highsec, there should be no reason for T3s running sites in highsec space.

I'm kind of divided on just banning ships from sites, it feels a bit too heavy-handed in my opinion, especially since T3 are the only ships with a scanning bonus that can actually run the sites decently. Then on the other hand, I think it would be great for other ships to be more useful in exploration sites.

Eight Two wrote:
3.) Adjust trigger mechanics. What's the point in having 2-5 rooms per site only to allow players to kill the triggers/overseers and move on without bothering with the site. A single room with a container and no NPCs would do that job just as fine. Running a site should actually include running a site.

Greatly disagree with this one. I really wouldn't want to see exploration sites turn into missions with a slot machine after the 5th pocket. Especially in low/null-sec: having sites that keep you in one place for long periods on time in a PvE fit are just going to skew the Risk/Reward ratio even further and make highsec farming look even more attractive. The sites definitely need to be challenging and require some effort on the part of the player, but I don't think that having to kill dozens of NPCs to unlock acceleration gates is the best way.

Eight Two wrote:
4.) Adjust profession sites in highsec space: radars offer great rewards whereas going for magnometric sites is next to pointless most of the time. Maybe even include Ladar Combat sites to make them useful.

Agree, as long as high-sec mag sites drop T1 salvage, they're always going to be useless due to missions dropping the same items in much greater numbers. As for Ladar Combat sites, they're pretty much exactly what exploration should be IMHO. There's NPCs doing quite a fair bit of damage, but you don't have to slog through killing everything to get a chance of getting loot, and the loot is good (when it drops of course) (Nanite Control skillbooks are what, 200m? 250m?)

So, in closing, I agree that exploration needs quite a lot of balancing in regards to risk vs reward, high vs low/null, and people in faction fit T3 ships with pirate implants set blitzing and farming highsec sites, but it's pretty low down the list on what I think they (CCP) need to be looking at (especially considering how much work would need to be done).
Talemecus Valta
Cosmos Industrial
#4 - 2012-11-21 12:22:43 UTC
With the new Crimewatch system coming in on Dec 4th, I think complex farmers might cut down on the activity.

Why?

Because people are going to be so hacked off with the farming, there will be PVP in these complexes and then something will change to prevent PVP in the complexes.

I know of a complex that is Farmed by one guy, constantly killing off the overseer, and then leaving the site to do the same at another site, that's all well and good as it allows me to salvage.

But it does defeat the object of the complex, to clear out the rats.

Eventually complexes could disappear completely from high sec, unless something is done to limit the farming.


Talemecus Valta, PVP Cannon Fodder, Valta Industries.

Hypercake Mix
#5 - 2012-11-21 12:52:03 UTC
As long as there is something to gain, farming won't stop.
Eight Two
SWIFT Inc.
#6 - 2012-11-21 14:39:24 UTC
Thanks for the feedback.

I should have been more specific, I agree with you Mio that the low and nullsec sites should probably keep their trigger system for the reasons you stated.

As for the farming, you can cut down a lot on it if you actually nerf the incentive while buffing the effort required. Farmers go for the easy money, any form of effort defeats the purpose.
Risien Drogonne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-11-21 20:54:41 UTC
Kinda seems like if some people had their way, high-sec wouldn't have anything in it at all... Just endless empty systems with a station here and there. Maybe not even that.
TheOneEsp
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-11-21 21:32:41 UTC
Eight Two wrote:
1.) Move 1&2/10s to the scanning system, remove 4/10s permanently from highsec space. Decrease the chance of high value faction loot dropping a bit to discourage professional farming.

The first part has been being requested for a while and needs to be done. 4/10s are the main source of isk for highsec explorers and removing them might seriously damage the profession. It will discourage farming but also cause new explorers to drift away when they realise they can make more isk elsewhere.

Eight Two wrote:
2.) Lock Acceleration Gates for anything higher than T2 and Faction Cruisers. High-end equipment belongs to high-end space, there's a reason why there's no Caps running lvl4s in highsec, there should be no reason for T3s running sites in highsec space.

Experienced players with the right knowledge and tools will have an advantage over newer players in every area of Eve. This shouldn't be an auto win though. I don't know enough about highsec exploration to say if this is the case though or if new explorers still have a good chance.

Eight Two wrote:
3.) Adjust trigger mechanics. What's the point in having 2-5 rooms per site only to allow players to kill the triggers/overseers and move on without bothering with the site. A single room with a container and no NPCs would do that job just as fine. Running a site should actually include running a site.

I was going to agree with this but Mio makes a good point. Maybe change to something like a random trigger with a clue so it is no longer just a memory test/another advantage for experienced explorers.

Eight Two wrote:
4.) Adjust profession sites in highsec space: radars offer great rewards whereas going for magnometric sites is next to pointless most of the time. Maybe even include Ladar Combat sites to make them useful.

Rad/Mag sites need to be rebalanced in high/low but I think mags are actually better in 0.0/

These are all good points to raise and ccp needs to do a little work on exploration. They are trying though. Hopefully the exploration frig changes will help new explorers into the profession.

Risien Drogonne wrote:
Kinda seems like if some people had their way, high-sec wouldn't have anything in it at all... Just endless empty systems with a station here and there. Maybe not even that.

Not every change is a nerf, not every suggestion is a whine.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#9 - 2012-11-21 21:40:36 UTC
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Kinda seems like if some people had their way, high-sec wouldn't have anything in it at all... Just endless empty systems with a station here and there. Maybe not even that.


I personally think he's right. High sec exploration *is* too profitable for the (lol) risk that is undertaken. This is due to Tengus simply being way more powerful than they ever had any right to be. However, with the coming nerfs (hopefully) to T3 cruisers, we can expect a bit more variety in modules. When EVERYONE flies a Tengu, the fittings for said ship will of course cost more. Once people start flying other ships, perhaps the costs for Tengu fittings will come down.

What the OP is suggesting however is not a complete removal of exploration from highsec (which your complaint implies) but rather a change to DED1/2 sites to prevent their easy farming, as well as trigger changes (meaning you have to shoot more things that don't have loot) and a reduction in the frequency of 4/10s spawning in highsec.

While this is a reduction, it is not a removal as your sensationalist post assumes. ISK/hour is reduced for people running sites in highsec, but lets be honest, if you're in highsec for your money making, you're either playing the market, or you're doing it wrong.

Addendum: Low sec is no where near as dangerous as people make it out to be. I frequently run haulers (on unaffiliated alts, sorry folks) with 1bil+ ISK in them 10+ jumps through low to get goods to high sec, where I contract it to Red Frog Freight because the systems around Jita are a death trap for haulers with cargo.

High sec is more dangerous than low sec for a lot of things.
Risien Drogonne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-11-21 21:57:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Risien Drogonne
This part of your post
Paikis wrote:

I personally think he's right. High sec exploration *is* too profitable for the (lol) risk that is undertaken.


Directly contradicts this part of your post.

Paikis wrote:
lets be honest, if you're in highsec for your money making, you're either playing the market, or you're doing it wrong.


First you say the 4/10 needs to be removed because it's too profitable to be in highsec. But then you turn around and say that if you're doing that for profit, you're doing it wrong because it's not really that profitable compared to other high-sec activities or other far more profitable activities in null-sec (appropriate because of higher risk).

Which is it? Seems like you need to resolve this conflict in your thinking before you can bring a coherent argument to CCP, doesn't it?

This last piece from you is just icing on the cake and blows apart your whole argument, exposing it as nothing more than "carebears shouldn't be able to make any money because I hate them"

Paikis wrote:
High sec is more dangerous than low sec for a lot of things.
Eight Two
SWIFT Inc.
#11 - 2012-11-21 23:47:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Eight Two
Thanks again for your feedback, keep it coming.

Quote:
First you say the 4/10 needs to be removed because it's too profitable to be in highsec. But then you turn around and say that if you're doing that for profit, you're doing it wrong because it's not really that profitable compared to other high-sec activities or other far more profitable activities in null-sec (appropriate because of higher risk).

Which is it? Seems like you need to resolve this conflict in your thinking before you can bring a coherent argument to CCP, doesn't it?

This last piece from you is just icing on the cake and blows apart your whole argument, exposing it as nothing more than "carebears shouldn't be able to make any money because I hate them"



What he was trying to say was that is in principle the same as I stated in the OP: The risk/reward and effort/reward ratios are insanely off compared to

a.) other activities such as running missions

b.) the profession specific risk/reward and effort/reward ratio in lowsec and nullsec

Stick with apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

I'm also not suggestion to make highsec empty, not at all. In fact with 1&2/10s and a few rare 4/10s highsec would have more signatures for explorers to find, just at a higher effort to get to the loot and less - in comparison realistic - reward.

The whole point of this is actually not forcing highsec players into low- or nullsec. It's actually making people work (as in, once again, effort) for their isk just as in any other profession in Eve.

As far as the lower SP players standing a chance goes: None at all unless you have a site completely for yourself for a prolonged period of time.

The main issue is: all of the sites are too easy for T3s and either too hard for T1 and faction ships (with the exception of probably the pirate faction cruisers but movement speed becomes an issue there) or not accesible if you opt for a battlecruiser - a ship that will be much too slow both in damage output and speed in comparison to a T3.

If you decide to move a scanning and combat ship seperately you will loose most sites before even getting the combat ship in because of the insane rate the sites are being completed.

Of course, players could start cross-training other faction's cruisers then again a new players already has a handful with getting the basic skills trained, let alone having to worry about training for other faction's ships, tanks and weapons.

Players could also stick to the two factions that actually have cruisers capable of running all sites (amar and gallente with arbitrator and vexor respectively for their drones) but limiting a whole profession to two factions for the start defeats the whole purpose of emergent gameplay, right?
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#12 - 2012-11-21 23:59:30 UTC
Risien Drogonne wrote:
This part of your post

Directly contradicts this part of your post.


Ugh, I hate quote mining.

Read it again, and this time try to comprehend it.
Mnemosyne Gloob
#13 - 2012-11-22 02:00:14 UTC
I personally wouldn't mind the DED 4/10 being lowsec only, hehe. It also would incite lots of rage.

Static complexes to the scanning system is long overdue, imo - and it's mentioned every time someone makes a thread about farmers of those.

However, something else piques my interest. In my observation the influx of explorers in highsec (and lowsec, too - can't say too much about null) came together with the things that made probing easier. shift/alt keys and the publication of signature strength filtering methods. And lets face it most of those tengus wouldn't be around if hunting for that 4/10 hadn't become so easy. They can trawl entire regions in a quite short amount of time. No wonder we hear stories of 10 ships in a site, all racing to get that loot (or OPE Roll).

So, what if - like loot - the signature strengths would be random? People would actually have to scan down stuff again and linger longer in systems - thus giving the guy 2 jumps over more time to finish that site he just found.

I don't think forcing tech 3 ships out of plexes is a good approach, you'd probably just see gilas and ishtars in there then ... and after a while those would have to be forced out.
Mnemosyne Gloob
#14 - 2012-11-22 02:07:48 UTC
Risien Drogonne wrote:
[snip]

This last piece from you is just icing on the cake and blows apart your whole argument, exposing it as nothing more than "carebears shouldn't be able to make any money because I hate them"

Paikis wrote:
High sec is more dangerous than low sec for a lot of things.


It certainly depends on where you spend more of your time and how you perceive your surroundings. As a lowsec dweller, i feel more comfortable in lowsec, than in highsec. And i would even go as far as to say travelling certain 'roads' in highsec is (i perceive it that way) more dangerous than my usual jumps around lowsec.
Risien Drogonne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-11-22 03:08:08 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Risien Drogonne wrote:
This part of your post

Directly contradicts this part of your post.


Ugh, I hate quote mining.

Read it again, and this time try to comprehend it.

I comprehended it just fine. Address the contradictions. I took nothing out of context, so quit pretending you're a politician.
Risien Drogonne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-11-22 03:15:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Risien Drogonne
Eight Two wrote:

The whole point of this is actually not forcing highsec players into low- or nullsec. It's actually making people work (as in, once again, effort) for their isk just as in any other profession in Eve.

But your solution was to move them into lowsec...

Yah, color me suspicious. Shouldn't you be advocating for some solution that doesn't contradict your stated problem?

I don't even do these sites. I just don't like the constant push by lowsec players to penalize everyone who doesn't want to go to lowsec, instead of simply making lowsec better and more fun. Reach into your head, gather up all the ideas that involve removing content from either highsec or nullsec, wad them up in a ball and throw them away. Start over again, and this time come up with things that make lowsec better WITHOUT making everywhere else worse. Moving content to lowsec is not the answer.

If farming is such a problem, suggest solutions that make farming harder but don't just remove the content for everyone else. Moving them to lowsec isn't the answer.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#17 - 2012-11-22 03:28:30 UTC
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Ugh, I hate quote mining.

Read it again, and this time try to comprehend it.

I comprehended it just fine. Address the contradictions. I took nothing out of context, so quit pretending you're a politician.


No you don't. There are no contradictions there, you're projecting what you think I said onto what I actually said. I made three points (that you're taking issue with);

1. High sec exploration has too high a reward for the level of risk.
2. If you're in high sec for your money making, you're either playing the market, or you're doing it wrong.
3. High sec is more dangerous than low sec for a lot of things.

None of these comments are mutually exclusive.

Comment #1 expanded:
High sec exploration has almost no risk. There is some level of risk in that your ship might explode if you disconnect or something, but otherwise, the only real threat is relatively weak NPC ships. Low risk should equal low rewards. But it doesn't. I've done my fair share of exploration (in both high, low and null) and the rewards in high sec are far too high.

Comment #2 expanded:
There are other activities in other parts of EVE that will make you more money than anything you can do in high sec (market warfare excluded). Such activities include (but are not limited to);
- Ratting in null
- Ratting in low
- Almost anything in wormholes
- Faction Warfare (not sure if this has been changed to no longer be profitable?)
- level 5 missions in low sec
- exploration in low sec
- exploration in null sec

That these activities will make you more ISK than anything in high sec does not change the fact that the risk/reward for highsec exploration is out of whack.

Comment #3 expanded:
I meant hauling.

Mnemosyne Gloob wrote:
So, what if - like loot - the signature strengths would be random? People would actually have to scan down stuff again and linger longer in systems - thus giving the guy 2 jumps over more time to finish that site he just found.


This is all well and good... right up until you try it in a wormhole. i have seen wormhole with 60+ signatures in them. That would NOT be fun to try scanning.
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-11-22 05:41:27 UTC
Mnemosyne Gloob wrote:
So, what if - like loot - the signature strengths would be random? People would actually have to scan down stuff again and linger longer in systems - thus giving the guy 2 jumps over more time to finish that site he just found.

I'd be okay with that as long as they change it so that you can see type (Combat, Grav, Radar etc) sooner than 25%, and move Wormholes out of the Unknown category.

Back to highsec and Tengus, if you're farming 4/10s in highsec, your only problems are 1) finding a site and b) finishing the site before someone else shows up. The NPCs couldn't kill you if you were asleep, and you pop them like bubble wrap. You don't have to pay attention to Local or Intel, you don't have to watch d-scan, you don't need station or gate bookmarks, you don't need to worry about people camping gates or doing roams in your area, and you don't have to worry about looking for sites in a cloaky fit then docking up and switching to your combat fit. The biggest loss you're going to have is forgetting to recall your Sister Probes.

Meanwhile, if you were to go to low or null, you suddenly have all those risks to consider, the sites get harder to run (needing better ships/fits), and take longer to complete (keeping you in one place, vulnerable to passers by). And the problem is that the reward doesn't scale up to fit that risk.

Yes, if you know what you're doing, lowsec and nullsec can be (relatively) safe, but you can get slightly less shiny loot in highsec, in exchange for not needing any situational awareness at all, running sites in a fraction of a time that the low/null ones

tl;dr: Sit inside Gurista 4/10s in highsec with suicide Tornados and cull the Tengu population

Aiyshimin
Descendant Command
#19 - 2012-11-22 07:50:25 UTC
I fully agree with the OP, this balancing is long overdue. I'd also add 3/10s to lowsec.

As what comes to T3 ships in hisec plexes, yes, no reason to let them thru accel gates, but unfortunately T2 Ishtar is vastly superior to your typical hisec Tengu fits for blitzing, and is at least as skill intensive. Tech 1 is the way to go.

So hisec DED 1-3/10s, T1 ships only. Fix loot tables of hisec 3/10s, farming these is bettter income than C1-C2 wormholes
lowsec: DED 1-6/10s, current shiptype restictions
nullsec: DED 4-10/10s, current shiptype restictions

Hazen Koraka
HK Enterprises
#20 - 2012-11-22 08:33:33 UTC
I see no reason to remove 3/10s or 4/10s from hisec. They aren't uber common anyway and highly contested by all the scanners out there anyway.

The statics however, need to be looked at.

Exploration is Random. Random is Random... or is it?! http://docs.python.org/2/library/random.html

12Next page