Player Features and Ideas Discussion

"That is a direct quote for the comment you made just 2-3 comments above this one...
Soo, which is it???
Are you a little fish that has yet to move out of the pond into open waters?
Or do you take advantage of the safety and security that high sec provides?

Ya know, for a high sec industrialist and trader, you sure sound like a low/null fight pusher...."

Yes, I am a little fish that has yet to move out of the pond and into the open waters.

The reason I like this idea is because it adds an element of realism to the game.



Hurray for real life!!!!
Here's the problem....
1) In real life we don't have spaceships that do universal space travel.

In real life we DO ( did) have sailing ships that explored, traded, did battle, and traveled to undiscovered continents. They aren't really conceptually that different from space faring craft.

2) in real life we don't have a massive populous of people spread across the universe.

In real life we DO (did) have a massive populous of people colonizing new continents. Instead of vast stretches of space, there were vast expanses of ocean. Again, if you are honest and use your imagination, you can make the comparison.

3) in real life we don't have people that are basically immortal.

Yet you have to consider what the original point is of CCP deciding to make people immortal with clones to begin with. If you plan to remain safe for your entire EVE career, does it matter that you have a clone?

4) and most importantly, in real life we don't have jump gates to bridge civilization together in the blink of an Eye.

I don't see why this is the most important thing here. It's an effective plot device, like warp speed is in Star Trek, to eliminate the light years of dead space between solar systems. It also offers choke points for strategic game play purposes (i.e. Jump gates are for gate camps). The real life comparison to jump gates would be straits, narrow channels of water such as the strait of Gibraltar or Cape Hope which act as choke points that limit a ship's ability to move.

I can tell you though, if we did have jump gates, odds are there would not be a boundry between one gate and another.
All traffic would funnel through that gate.

The thing is, we DO have jump gates in EVE. Perhaps you mean if we did NOT have jump gates? But then you say all traffic would pass through that non-existent gate, so your sentence is confusing to me.

The point behind a demilitarized zone is to create a buffer so that you have time to respond to a threat and/or dispatch any possible threat before it's too late.

Are you saying the high-sec areas between the rival factions (Amarr vs. Minmatar, Cal vs. Gal) are the demilitarized zones? Shouldn't they be patrolled by the Factional Navy then, instead of Concord? It seems like Concord is only concerned with combat between pilots that don't pay them their war dec bribe, not Factional warfare.

If everything at a demilitarized zone were forced to funnel through a very narrow channel in order to cross (I.E. a jump gate), then odds are there wouldn't be a demilitarized zone, but instead an engagement zone where once something crosses this line, you kill it.

You've lost me again here. Is the area between rival factions a demilitarized zone, or isn't it? If so, how does merely having a jump gate or funnel area now make the demilitarized zone not a demilitarized zone anymore? Doesn't every solar system in EVE have a jump gate?

"Lol, you missed the point where I said things are already the way I want them.. "

why?

So, if you want them to change, YOU have the burden of proof...
All I need is plausible deniability.

Also, an Axiom would say that something is true without question.
So,

"water is wet"
is an axiom.

"You don't get better at something until things get harder and you adapt."

This is not true.
I can be given all the information I will ever need for my job and it will make things easy.
However, as I apply that knowledge and memorize everything, I am getting better at my job.
That said, things haven't gotten harder, only require a different solution, which i have at my fingertips.

I see.

How did you learn to walk? Did you just watch other people do it, intellectually absorb the general concept, and sprang like a jungle cat to your muscularly developed legs? Are people born with the ability to play guitar, or high jump, or water ski, or hit a bullseye? How does evolution work? Why do athletes bother to practice? Why are some people better at some things than other people? Is it all intellectual ability and genetics?

'All the information you will ever need for your job'. That sounds like a pretty easy job.

If you are applying all the knowledge you memorized, you really aren't getting better....you are stagnating. Maybe you are getting faster at doing the same thing, but that's not really getting better. If you are an expert at fixing a car engine let's say, and you do the same routine repairs every day such as changing the oil....you are not improving. The only time you improve is when you are faced with a challenge, then learn something new to overcome that challenge.

"You don't appreciate something that took no effort for you to get."

Uhh, I beg to differ.
If i walked in and bought a ticket for tonight's powerball and won... I would have put no effort into that, and I would be very appreciative of it.

Powerball is some sort of a lottery I guess?

Have you heard the stories of those lottery winners? Some of them are people of limited means, working for a fixed wage. They suddenly win a few million dollars in the lottery, and to them it seems like a limitless supply of money. They end up spending it on frivolous things, and spend it all within six months to a year. After that, they are often much worse off than they before, because they are deeply in debt. Why did this happen? They were delighted to win the money, but they did not appreciate the money because they did not earn it. Easy come, easy go.

Appreciate is not the same thing as enjoy. Appreciate means to understand the true value of something. You can be a self-centred prick who enjoys having a pretty girlfriend around, or you can be someone who appreciates the love of a beautiful woman.


Ahh, I see now... You sit in high sec and produce ships and/or trade goods for ship production, so you stand to profit from seperation.
It all makes sense to me now.

*Wink* Yes, us high sec industrialists will likely make a fortune if this low-sec barrier idea goes through.

lol, no it's not about that either...
It's about what you, an industrialist, stand to profit off of the seperation.

The latin phrase for this is 'argumentam ad homenium', or 'argument to the person'. You've switched from talking about the topic itself, and are now focusing the discussion on me. You are also assuming my motives, a strawman argument.

Enough about me though, tell us about you. How do you make your ISK in EVE, and how would this low-sec barrier cut into your profits? If you told us that, we might be able to understand your perspective a little more.

You know damn good and well that the seperation would drive up regional prices, and you having the skills and probably a jump freighter to counter the effects of the split.

I don't think it would drive up regional prices. Some of the goods that have to be imported might be more expensive, but most stuff can be made locally with local resources. If anything, it would decrease the prices and expand the market menu in the smaller 'rural' trade hubs. The prices in local main trade hubs would remain competitive. Also, I have neither the skills nor a jump freighter.

also, what you seem to fail to realize is that splitting the regions does not create more isk faucets.. It simply increases the amount of isk changing hands.

You like to make a lot of assumptions about what other people are thinking. That's called a 'strawman'. You inform people of what they are thinking, then tell them why they are wrong.

I never said that splitting the regions creates more ISK faucets. I did point out that high sec mission runners are insulated from the effects of the market. The amount of NPC agents will not be affected, nor will the payout. Also, 'increasing the amount of ISK changing hands'. Isn't this also known as commerce?

"And while we're talking, can you stop throwing out a bunch of crap about movies and unrelated IRL history that pertains nothing to assist your cause?
Really all it does is force me to have to read through a bunch of garbage to get to the garbage that is on topic."

Sorry, no. Why should I? The whole of human history supports my premise that the Factions should be separated by a low sec barrier. Every story ever told or written by humans supports the idea of a low-sec barrier, and EVE is one of those fictional stories too. Human history did not stop when we humans from Earth jumped through the EVE gate. Human nature did not change. EVE also has a backstory, and the four factions of EVE behave in the same way humans on Earth did. I'm standing on firm ground here.

The only thing you are saying is 'I don't want it changed', for the reason that YOU like it fine the way it is.

Bad comparison...
the Ocean is more like the borders that factions have with low sec.

Also, the faction Navy's secure their border gates with other factions, Concord does not do this.
Concord is merely a police force, and CCP made changes not too far back to make it appear as such.. Meaning they gave the Navys of the factions more of a security/defense profile.

Again though, there is no real world scenario that equates to Eve borders.
That is why I had to make up a funnel situation with the US/Mexico border.

Basically, the only way the Factions can respond to a threat is when the threat enters their territory.. Having a demilitarized zone between them and another faction would not do anything to aid them in security, as they have no idea what would be in that system, as they can't monitor from the other side of the gate... Even if they were inside the low sec system, they would not be able to engage anything without cause all out war between the factions.

So, they're stuck in their high sec system, securing their border from the inside, and any threat that comes in, is dispatched.

There's no point in creating a buffer zone when it does nothing to aid in defense.

This would be kinda like a line of foot solders placing a wall in front of another wall...
You can't defend or attack in between the two walls, so why bother putting the second wall up... Just kill anything that comes over the first wall.

Joe Risalo, you continue to simply spin your opinions as to why things should not change. You merely twist points, find simple holes in the use of words (as the English language is full of) and redirect arguments with pointless rhetoric. Few things you have said thus far have been beneficial to the conversation. You're being a worthless distraction, not providing critical thinking for improvement, but merely hypercritical argumentation.

By all means, do your thing. No one can, and no one will stop you - but if you're going to be here, you might as well try to be useful rather than wasting time turning people's words against them for the sake of doing so.

same

"Many times, I and other people have OP'd threads and people have come in and said "no" simply because this isn't real life, don't fix what isn't broken, or change for the sake of change is not a reason to change."

This would be change to add depth, long flights would actually mean something other then time spent

This would be change not because its more like real life, but because its more story and life in the game

This would be change because currently IT IS BROKEN, born and raised in amarr, but can autopilot from the throne worlds to minmatar's capital?!?

This would not be change for the sake of change, this would be change to make the game more playable. It would add life to a boring profession, make another profession the way it should be, and create new professions. For those that would not want to partake, let them stick to one empire. There is still afk isk to be made, just now there would be the option to make more isk, doing the same thing, but now not afk.

This would be a hindrance to me as i am largely a mission runner, however anything that makes more option, adds depth, and helps break down monotony of a game while still allowing those who want the monotony to have it, is to me, a great change.

You could say that all of the expansions (or most, i dont know) were not changes that HAD to happen, or you could say that for the life of this game to continue they did have to happen. How many people would still be playing a game that was released in 2003 and had not changed at all?

ultimately, I like the game the way it is, but i think this would make it better.

Except in character creation it asks us what empire, what family in that empire, and what empire specific school, so seems to me to be important.
Also,
Beginning standings indicate that your clearly from one faction or the others. Our very looks indicate which empire and family we're from, sooo

I agree that in practicality it doesnt really matter, but still, its there.
One more thing,
What does this have to do with low/null sec separating the empires?

i see this thread is still alive....

let me reiterate my answer:
-NO-

Great Idea, It would be interesting to see what would happen to high sec incursions.

Good Luck, Commander Ted

I think this is a fantastic idea! Especially for those looking to make isk with hauling goods. First there would need to be some changes to NPC rats.

Firstly CCP would need to make rats spawn only in certain empires. Guristas in Caldari space, Serpentis in Gallente space etc.
So the only way to gain Meta 2-4 gear would be in those specific Empires, or to have someone ship these items across dangerous space lanes.

For example, my Nemesis fit requires Meta 4 torpedo launchers to work, but I live in Gallente space. I need to hope some brave haulers have shipped these launchers across pirate infested areas or I'll have to make the trek myself.

As an industrialist I can see that there is a need for autocannons in Amarr space. So I fit up a cheap hauler (maybe warp stab it) and dive into Minmatar space. Then I raise the prices in Amarr because of the danger I went through. This is how I envisioned playing the markets when I first heard of Eve.

This brings up engaging gameplay as a market manipulator. I believe this is much better than, "Buy in Jita, autopilot to Rens"

Now I have to figure out how much profit do I need if I have to pay a corp member to bring a sacrificial griffin to jam would be pirates (not saying thats a great strategy, but you get the idea)