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What I see coming from the new bounty system....

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MinefieldS
1 Sick Duck Standss on something
#81 - 2012-11-16 05:53:58 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
That's not really what I meant but if you still get insurance, that would make paying off bounties a lot easier. I doubt it's worth the effort though.

OK, what did you mean by that?
Lance Rossiter
CHAINS Corp
#82 - 2012-11-16 05:58:03 UTC
If I'm understanding the system correctly, then it's important to remember that the bountyee is the one who decides how much is paid out for taking him down, as it's based on a proportion of his losses.

It's not going to be worth suicide ganking someone in high sec unless he's flying around with more than "X" million worth of cargo / ship / fittings / implants no matter how high his bounty pool actually is, except when he starts to make the top however-many that trigger an increased percentage pay-out, and even then he's still in control over the principal amount.

This is largely how high sec works already (carrying too much valuable stuff makes it possible for it to be to be economical to kill you) except that bounties will be take into account things other than cargo.

The worst case scenario, you are semi-consensually (by flying with a high enough loss value) turning high sec temporarily into low sec - people can kill you at a profit but it makes them criminals, and the consequences for criminal activity are being reworked too.

It doesn't seem like it would anything worth unsubbing over, even if you were a gentle soul of a sensitive disposition who dislikes all that "conflict" stuff.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#83 - 2012-11-16 06:01:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
LHA Tarawa wrote:

Number of carebears posting about how they look forward to the changes so they can put bounties on griefers: 0


Wow. Your psychological powers of deduction are immense. You managed to work out just from people's comments and avatars exactly what they do in the game, and how much PvP they do, and whether that PvP is griefing. Bravo.

I say, bravo. Except your actually just wrong. So, never-mind the bravo.

I am hardly a hardened griefer myself.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#84 - 2012-11-16 06:02:07 UTC
That the sum of the bounty paid off should be subtracted from the sum of the insurance.

Oh god.
Herr Hammer Draken
#85 - 2012-11-16 07:16:52 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
I think CCP intended the changes to the bounty system to be used as "pay back" for people that do bad things in game. Mess with me, I'll put a bounty on you.

I highly suspect, it will end up as the exact opposite.


Two flaws:
1) lot of the high sec ganking is done on throw away toons. It takes very little training to get into a DPS destroyer... The bounties will do little if placed on a throw away toon.

2) Just as war dec's are used by PVP corps to blackmail industrial corps, I suspect the new bounty system is going to be used much the same.

Because of the 20% payout, you have to lose 5x as much in ships as the bounty that is put on you. So, I see PVP corps blackmailing industrial corps like this: "Pay me 100 million a week, or I'll put 100 million a week bounty on you. It is cheaper to pay me the 100 million ISK than to lose 500 million ISK in ships to bounty hunters."

The response, of course, from the industrialists will be to simply create a new corp (if it is corp bounties they are getting hit with) or let their accounts unsub for the length of time that it takes for the bounties to go away. This mass "unsub", of course, CCP is not going to ignore.


In short, players are not going to use the system as intended. It is going to cause much grief amongst the carebear community that constitutes a HUGE chunk of CCPs paid accounts (revenue). Therefore, big changes will be made to the new bounty system fairly quickly after implementation. Then, the people that misused the bounty system to grief carebears will be all whiny about how we're nerfing the game again.



I think you are way overstating this.

CCP's goals with the new bounty system.

Make the system as fool proof as possible from being gamed in unintended ways.

Make the system available to all players of eve.

Make the system increase combat potential in high sec and give players a method to police high sec without concord intervention. This last part works along side of kill rights. They work in a synergy with each other.

Make the system easy to understand so everyone can use it to good effect. The idea again being more fighting in high sec is good for eve.

Do not get stuck thinking CCP is doing this as a favor to high sec players. It can be used to benefit any player that wants to use it. But in the end its design is to increase the combat and the ship loss that occurs in eve. More fighting is good.
More player involvement is good also. It is important to learn this mechanic and use it to good effect and to be ready for it.
It will have a profound effect on high sec operations of all kinds. Just do not play the victim role or you will end up being a victim.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#86 - 2012-11-16 07:23:24 UTC
Skydell wrote:
The "pirates" either didn't think this through or are trying to make the "care bears" squirm just a little more because they know they won't have the option very soon. This system is designed to punish people who get criminal flags and it will do what it was set up to do.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA


hahaha



WUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



he...

he.....


PFRAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Kara Vix
Perkone
Caldari State
#87 - 2012-11-16 07:27:45 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Kara Vix wrote:
The current system has been bad since day one. The new system looks terrific, can someone find a way to grief with it-probably, but if that happens the same system can be used to grief him back. I look forward to this going live.



Yes, the current bounty system is horrid. I disagree that the new system looks terrific.

I think the new system is open to all sorts of unintended uses and exploits, not the least of which will be its use to extort carebears.


I understand your concerns but its silly to paint the devil on the wall, if the system is abused and it causes undue problems for non PvP'ers I would imagine that the devs would make changes. The game is supposed to have dangers and CCP has shown a desire to balance those dangers without removing them altogether (barge buffs), so I suggest we go into these changes with a positive attitude and if things go wrong, then voice exactly what the problem is and ask it be addressed.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#88 - 2012-11-16 07:35:48 UTC
Kara Vix wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Kara Vix wrote:
The current system has been bad since day one. The new system looks terrific, can someone find a way to grief with it-probably, but if that happens the same system can be used to grief him back. I look forward to this going live.



Yes, the current bounty system is horrid. I disagree that the new system looks terrific.

I think the new system is open to all sorts of unintended uses and exploits, not the least of which will be its use to extort carebears.


I understand your concerns but its silly to paint the devil on the wall, if the system is abused and it causes undue problems for non PvP'ers I would imagine that the devs would make changes. The game is supposed to have dangers and CCP has shown a desire to balance those dangers without removing them altogether (barge buffs), so I suggest we go into these changes with a positive attitude and if things go wrong, then voice exactly what the problem is and ask it be addressed.


I think the new bounty system has the potential to radicalise the miner comunity. There is a good chance that miners will start to put bounties on other miners over little controversies. Right now if a miner wants a belt for himself or has a grudge on old corpmates they already usually start up a convo with people willing to gank in high sec and give them some money for ships...

In the future they can just place bounties directly...there will be blackmailing, intrigues, industrial conspiracies....it will be a beautiful hell and the carebears will create it themselves...
Because Greed is something you can count on...
(btw. I think Bumpers probably have to step down from using fleet stabbers...)

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#89 - 2012-11-16 07:40:49 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Only 19 days left coward.
How big a bounty are you putting on me because my posting annoys you?



I'm going to wait until about a week before hand then go ratting all week and dump all that on a bounty on you.

I reckon it's going to be at least 500mil.


Unintended consequences or proof that by eliminating forum posting CCP meta's the best?

Big smile
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#90 - 2012-11-16 08:29:15 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Then I guess that would be a flaw. Null sec alliances already earn a profit on the ships they lose, as far as I'm aware.


No

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#91 - 2012-11-16 08:33:56 UTC
Don't Test profit from lost Drakes? I was told that they did.

Oh god.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#92 - 2012-11-16 08:39:59 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

I strongly reccomend you have an alt blow up whichever character has the bounty on them. Keep at it until you earn at least twice as much ISK as you are losing.


This sounds as if you are trying to be sarcastic, but I miss the point.


Let's say someone puts a 100 million iSK bounty on me.

Let's say there is a cruiser that the hull costs 10 million, and insurance buy is 2 million payout is 12 million.

I buy the hull and insure it. My cost is 12 million.

I undock in unfit hull. My alt drops a can. I steal from it. My alt blows up the ship I was in.

Insurance pays me 12 million and I collect 2 million of the bounty. Profti = 2 million.

I then salvage the wreck with the alt while I dock up and reship.... repeat until the bounty is low enough that it is no longer worth it to continue blowing myself.


Which brings me back to the question.... will the "loss" basis that is used to determine payout only be the amount of loss that is above insurance payout?



I'll just stop you there, since this misunderstanding seems to be the core of your worries. Net insurance payout is approximately 60% of the hull value. Bounty payouts are capped at 20%. Even if you platinum-insure your hull, you can't make a profit from your own bounty.

Likewise your maths in your OP was equally fallcious. Putting 100M bounty on "carebears" does not equal costing them 500M. Apart from anything else, they can insure their own ships; you accidentally forgot to include insurance at all in your calculation, but even if they don't insure their ships, they'll get more ISK back from the default "uninsured" payment from the ship loss than the bounty hunters collect in bounty. And the bounty hunters will still have to lose their ships to CONCORD (and get NO ISK back from that) to collect.

And what bounty hunters do you think are going to lift a finger for a lousy 100M? Let alone go to the expense and effort of ganking 19 or 20 retreivers to collect that 100M? That's a heck of a lot of work for such a scrappy "reward".

So let me tl;dr this for you: The new bounty system will not make it economic to grief mining nubs in T1 barges. If you're a minre and someone puts a bounty on you, switch to a Procuror and carry on, safe in the knowledge that it'll cost them 5 or 6 times what they get to collect it. If you want to keep on keeping on in untanked Hulks, then yeah I guess maybe. Working as Intended in that case.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#93 - 2012-11-16 08:42:16 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Don't Test profit from lost Drakes? I was told that they did.


Individual TEST pilots might. TEST alliance doesn't. You're confusing a subsidy with a profit. If I pay you 250M/hr to run level 1 missions in empire, that doesn't make running level 1s in empire the most profitable PvE in the game, it just means I'm giving you a boatload of cash.


Disclaimer: Also I would not pay you.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#94 - 2012-11-16 09:21:33 UTC
Maybe I misunderstood their meaning when they said they profited from them.

Oh god.
Borascus
#95 - 2012-11-16 09:55:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Borascus
Aryth wrote:
There is also a 3rd flaw, which I am sure we are going to be happy to illustrate post patch.


I for one don't think using a fully insured, cheap to make ship made from a fully researched BPO, and bounty claiming merc group will profit from this.

If a ship costs 45mil to make and is blown up with a bounty of 60mil on it, the market price on the BPO minerals would be used (before the % reduction)? Hell if not some lucky camper will find out the best rate of insurance and only get blown up in that.

Although, if it's only the percentage of cost to make rather than the FW-escapade: market manipulated price.

you'll know more than me about this ofc......



As for having one avatar locked away somewhere ready to come and clear a bounty to 0; never being seen outside of 'home' space and only clearing bounties by shooting the cheapest to make large ship, that is fully insured. It would at least keep the ISK in la famiglia.

((Disclaimer: I for one did not notice or claim that the happiness to illustrate a game mechanic flaw post-patch was in any way a preparation to exploit said flaw))
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#96 - 2012-11-16 10:00:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
Yeah, it's just a waste of time. Going through all that hassle to clear a bounty when someone else is going to put a bounty on you the very next day anyway. I'm not going to bother trying to clear my bounties. I'll just fly cheap ships outside of nullsec.

Oh god.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#97 - 2012-11-16 11:50:23 UTC
Let me put it that way...and keep in mind it is only an example:

Oh look a miner with 40 Mio bounty on his head.
Oh look, a Mackinaw with empty mids but T2 stripminers…..200.000.000 - 210.000.000 Mio ISK
Oh look two T2 blaster fitted Catalysts…................................................................30 Mio ISK
Oh look the game mechanic:
Quote:
The bounty payout is based on a percentage of the Total Loss, so the bounty received will always be considerably less than the actual Total Loss value. The base number we’re going for right now is 20%. This means that if you blow something up worth 100 million, then 20 million is paid out in bounty (or whatever is left in the bounty pool if less than 20 million).


Oh look you just earned 10 mio isk by loosing your ships by ganking in high sec.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Herr Hammer Draken
#98 - 2012-11-16 12:12:59 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Let me put it that way...and keep in mind it is only an example:

Oh look a miner with 40 Mio bounty on his head.
Oh look, a Mackinaw with empty mids but T2 stripminers…..200.000.000 - 210.000.000 Mio ISK
Oh look two T2 blaster fitted Catalysts…................................................................30 Mio ISK
Oh look the game mechanic:
Quote:
The bounty payout is based on a percentage of the Total Loss, so the bounty received will always be considerably less than the actual Total Loss value. The base number we’re going for right now is 20%. This means that if you blow something up worth 100 million, then 20 million is paid out in bounty (or whatever is left in the bounty pool if less than 20 million).


Oh look you just earned 10 mio isk by loosing your ships by ganking in high sec.


But you know that is logical. And it still will not stop the 12 year olds from doing exactly that. Hey look at that guy flying around with a 200 M bounty lets get him....LMAO!

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#99 - 2012-11-16 12:19:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
I see many sellable kill rights going for free.

Be a whole new dynamic knowing that ANYONE who wants a pop, can do so if you have even a single killright in the open Smile

Right up until people burn them with alts making the transfer....pointless.
Borascus
#100 - 2012-11-16 12:23:31 UTC
I think the "random: pimp out kill rights now" aspect was beautiful, if under explored.