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Is there any good reason for not being able to buy NOT the cheapest item in the same location?
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EglantinFinfleur
Ecpyrosis
#1 - 2012-11-14 12:24:37 UTC  |  Edited by: EglantinFinfleur
I though this game was pvp-based and that every interaction was pitting players against one another. Now, as a pod pilot and a player, I despise chrematistics and want to aggravate people who play the 0.1 isk game, which is imo a waste of bandwidth and a visual outrage. Therefore, I want to buy from people who present coherent, easy to read prices with numbers that don't look like 79987.54, which are just ugly. I want to help make it unworthwhile to present those kind of prices.

Why is it that right-click buying a more expensive item, in the same location, makes you buy from the cheapest seller, at the higher price?

Is there any valid reason for that? I always thought it was a myth kept alive by 0.1 lamers, but I just tested it and it's sadly true.

What's the story behind this?


Thanks!
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#2 - 2012-11-14 12:33:12 UTC
Well, it makes it harder to launder funds for one. Not impossible, but harder.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#3 - 2012-11-14 12:46:43 UTC
Think about it like this: You want an item. You are willing to pay a price. The game assumes you are rational, and therefore are more than willing to pay the lowest price someone has indicated they are willing to sell. However, you are allowed to be irrational. You are allowed to change the price you are willing to pay. So the game either sets up a buy order for you, if it's too small, or just lets you pay a higher amount. But how do you decide who, of the people who are willing to sell for all the prices between lowest sell and your price, gets the business? Well, the game chooses to go by whoever is selling at the lowest, first, and whoever set that price first.

I understand what you're saying, but it's not exactly a common demand, and therefore the mechanics are set in a way to benefit people with unorganized market windows, or traders looking to maximize time, or whatever.

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.
Tom Hagen
Twilight Empire
#4 - 2012-11-14 14:51:23 UTC
Its a broker system.

You go to the broker and say I want to buy X amount of item Y at the price of Z.
The broker then shops around and the lowest sell order gets the deal. If you want to shop around feel free to do that. But the broker don't do it for you. He is just making sure you get the item you want at the price you are saying that you want to pay for it.

So you are lazy and getting punished for it, while the seller who are active and 0.1 Isk their order gets the sell. He is being rewarded for his work.

So atm the seller has to work in order to stay competitive, nothing odd if the least that are being requested by the buyer is to sort their market orders and shop around a bit in order to get the best deal.


When you go to the supermarket and just pick up the merchandise you want, does someone automatically exchange everything for you with an another product that are cheaper and does the same thing?
Or do you have to be aware about the cost and make your own decision?
In my part of the world at least, in general the supermarket are happy if I want to pay a higher price and most often if I insist I would most likely be allowed to pay a higher price.
EglantinFinfleur
Ecpyrosis
#5 - 2012-11-14 17:41:00 UTC
Tom Hagen wrote:
Its a broker system.

You go to the broker and say I want to buy X amount of item Y at the price of Z.
The broker then shops around and the lowest sell order gets the deal. If you want to shop around feel free to do that. But the broker don't do it for you. He is just making sure you get the item you want at the price you are saying that you want to pay for it.

So you are lazy and getting punished for it, while the seller who are active and 0.1 Isk their order gets the sell. He is being rewarded for his work.

So atm the seller has to work in order to stay competitive, nothing odd if the least that are being requested by the buyer is to sort their market orders and shop around a bit in order to get the best deal.


When you go to the supermarket and just pick up the merchandise you want, does someone automatically exchange everything for you with an another product that are cheaper and does the same thing?
Or do you have to be aware about the cost and make your own decision?
In my part of the world at least, in general the supermarket are happy if I want to pay a higher price and most often if I insist I would most likely be allowed to pay a higher price.



I don't get what you're saying. Moreover, I'm not talking about buy orders, but buying from the list. When I right-click on a particular item in a list, it would seem reasonable to expect that it's this item that is sold.

Now, it seems that right-clicking on the sales lists is equivalent in game design as putting up a buy order. This is a problem. When you shop for items you need right now, you don't put a buy order, you browse the sales list, which shows distance, station, quantity, etc. Browsing through that list is made painful by obnoxious numbers put up by the 0.1 isk players, it makes me angry, and I don't want to give them my isk. Why am I forced to do so?



Tul Breetai wrote:
Think about it like this: You want an item. You are willing to pay a price. The game assumes you are rational, and therefore are more than willing to pay the lowest price someone has indicated they are willing to sell. However, you are allowed to be irrational. You are allowed to change the price you are willing to pay. So the game either sets up a buy order for you, if it's too small, or just lets you pay a higher amount. But how do you decide who, of the people who are willing to sell for all the prices between lowest sell and your price, gets the business? Well, the game chooses to go by whoever is selling at the lowest, first, and whoever set that price first.

I understand what you're saying, but it's not exactly a common demand, and therefore the mechanics are set in a way to benefit people with unorganized market windows, or traders looking to maximize time, or whatever.



I get that it may be easier from a design point of view, but it brings another issue. What about boycott? If entity x has a beef with entity y, there is no way for x to blacklist y and prevent its goods to appear on x's list. I don't think it makes a lot of sense in a so-called harsh and cold sci-fi universe. Does it?
Holder Panala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-11-14 17:49:40 UTC
When you right click buy item you are saying "Mr Broker, I would like X of this item at the price of the one I have indicated". It's creating a buy order that will be instantly filled. You're not walking down a market filled with different stalls at different prices and buying off a stall with a higher price, it's a broker system.
EglantinFinfleur
Ecpyrosis
#7 - 2012-11-14 18:06:32 UTC
Holder Panala wrote:
When you right click buy item you are saying "Mr Broker, I would like X of this item at the price of the one I have indicated". It's creating a buy order that will be instantly filled. You're not walking down a market filled with different stalls at different prices and buying off a stall with a higher price, it's a broker system.


While that makes sense, why does the list shows ALL the differently priced iterations of the same item in a particular station? If this were really intended as a broker system, would'nt it just list the lowest price, and the number of available items at this particular price?

If convenience is the key factor here, why is it that when we shop, we have to be aggressed by wall of irritating meaningless numbers?

And, once again, if there is a list of the different prices of the same item in the same location, why is there no way to boycott certain entities and not buying from them?
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#8 - 2012-11-14 18:29:19 UTC
EglantinFinfleur wrote:
I get that it may be easier from a design point of view, but it brings another issue. What about boycott? If entity x has a beef with entity y, there is no way for x to blacklist y and prevent its goods to appear on x's list. I don't think it makes a lot of sense in a so-called harsh and cold sci-fi universe. Does it?



How are you going to boycott when their name isn't known until you actually buy from them? On the grounds that they are .01 ISKing... which is absurd. As absurd as killing carebears "for being carebears."


And what Tom was saying is this: For the roleplaying explanation, you are hiring a broker to make transactions for you with your money. They essentially set up a buy order, and if there are sell orders at or below your stated price (which there are in your case, as you clicked on them to begin with), and if they are within your stated range, he/she/it makes the decision to buy immediately. The broker picks the client, the broker handles the transaction, and the broker organizes the delivery. All you see is your money go poof and your item delivered to your hangar, OR a buy order you can now control via the broker. So, the game simply doesn't have the functionality to allow you to be more specific to the broker, but to be fair, you are already allowed to be specific enough for the majority of market needs in the game.

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#9 - 2012-11-14 18:43:15 UTC
The entire list is there so buyers can see what is available at what prices. If the lowest price order was only offering 3 items and I wanted 10, I would like to see the price of both the lowest order and the next order up as well, to see if that is the station I want to fly to or if it would be better to fly elsewhere.

The present system also has a convenient feature: You can buy more items at once than are being offered by the lowest order. Example say I want 10 items and these are the orders:

3 at 500.33
8 at 500.45

The prices are close, so I'm willing to trade time for ISK. I click on the higher price order and set the quantity to 10. The order at 500.33 is filled, along with 7 items from the order at 500.45. I got to spend 500.45 for all 10 items, but I got all 10 items with only one purchase.

With what you are suggesting the above would no longer work, making buying stuff less convenient for everyone just so you alone could get what you want.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

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EglantinFinfleur
Ecpyrosis
#10 - 2012-11-14 19:03:52 UTC  |  Edited by: EglantinFinfleur
Vincent Athena wrote:
The entire list is there so buyers can see what is available at what prices. If the lowest price order was only offering 3 items and I wanted 10, I would like to see the price of both the lowest order and the next order up as well, to see if that is the station I want to fly to or if it would be better to fly elsewhere.

The present system also has a convenient feature: You can buy more items at once than are being offered by the lowest order. Example say I want 10 items and these are the orders:

3 at 500.33
8 at 500.45

The prices are close, so I'm willing to trade time for ISK. I click on the higher price order and set the quantity to 10. The order at 500.33 is filled, along with 7 items from the order at 500.45. I got to spend 500.45 for all 10 items, but I got all 10 items with only one purchase.

With what you are suggesting the above would no longer work, making buying stuff less convenient for everyone just so you alone could get what you want.


My suggestion was just a streamlining of the current system, to prove how obtuse it is. The point is not there.

Anyway, in such a design, you could have the lowest price available, the quantity of items offered at that price, and the total quantity of items available at whatever price in the location you choose. When buying more items than available at the lowest price, there could be a warning indicating the price to add to fill the remained of your transaction. How inconvenient would it be?

As of now, the sales list is just one annoying wall of text that makes zero sense, since you can't see who sells, nor can you choose who to buy from.





Tul Breetai wrote:
EglantinFinfleur wrote:
I get that it may be easier from a design point of view, but it brings another issue. What about boycott? If entity x has a beef with entity y, there is no way for x to blacklist y and prevent its goods to appear on x's list. I don't think it makes a lot of sense in a so-called harsh and cold sci-fi universe. Does it?



How are you going to boycott when their name isn't known until you actually buy from them? On the grounds that they are .01 ISKing... which is absurd. As absurd as killing carebears "for being carebears."

.



Precisely. Why is there no way to know beforehand the name of the entity you might be buying from, and why is there no way to boycott/blacklist particular entities, preventing you from accidentaly buying from them?
Also, why can't you blacklist entities in the sales direction, preventing them to buy from you?

I thought that it was a harsh universe and that people were allowed to be obnoxious to their heart's content, prentending to be Veldspar Defence Force (lol! so randum :DDD) and ganking miners. Objectively, 0.1 players are immensely more annoying than miners, since you have to suffer their walls of numbers every goddamn time you buy a module.

I don't have any way to penalize them for their distasteful activities. Why is that?
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#11 - 2012-11-14 19:25:35 UTC
EglantinFinfleur wrote:
Holder Panala wrote:
When you right click buy item you are saying "Mr Broker, I would like X of this item at the price of the one I have indicated". It's creating a buy order that will be instantly filled. You're not walking down a market filled with different stalls at different prices and buying off a stall with a higher price, it's a broker system.


While that makes sense, why does the list shows ALL the differently priced iterations of the same item in a particular station? If this were really intended as a broker system, would'nt it just list the lowest price, and the number of available items at this particular price?

If convenience is the key factor here, why is it that when we shop, we have to be aggressed by wall of irritating meaningless numbers?


http://i.imgur.com/q8k9D.png

Question

The list shows all the differently priced iterations because you choose to have it that way. Use the other view. Or just accept that you can't launder your money that way.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
EglantinFinfleur
Ecpyrosis
#12 - 2012-11-14 19:42:02 UTC
corestwo wrote:

http://i.imgur.com/q8k9D.png

Question

The list shows all the differently priced iterations because you choose to have it that way. Use the other view. Or just accept that you can't launder your money that way.


So the ONLY reason for such a system is that people would launder money through it? I don't even understand how it would work. And it's not like there's not already huge amounts of RMT behind the scenes.

But let's pretend for a moment there's care about possible laundering -the workings of which I'd like to understand if anyone's patient enough-, how boycotting/blacklisting certain entities whom you have a beef with, from buying your goods or selling you any, could encourage laundering?
Nayl Mkoll
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-11-14 21:11:04 UTC
Love it or hate it thats how a broker system works and how it works in eve is a broker system. your using the station as your broker and regardless of how you want it to work the system will process a buy to the lowest sell order first and a sell to the highest buy order first. Sorry?
Ken Sunji
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-11-15 02:33:01 UTC
No there isnt, but nor is there much of a good reason to spend valuable Dev time changing something that isnt broken, in a GAME (Why do people forget this). Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinions...
Peri Simone
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-11-15 03:06:12 UTC
I don't think the problem you're trying to highlight actually exists for anyone else. Eve needs a trading system, and at some point along the line somebody's had to say okay, this is how it's going to be. Could they have done it a different way? Yes. Should they change it because a player doesn't like seeing a page of irregular numbers? No, that would be nuts.

The practice of 0.01 isking might annoy you (and obviously does), but from the point of view of the trader it's entirely sensible. There are very few situations in which I'd want to lower my prices more than I absolutely have to, and creating a visually pleasing row of zeros simply isn't a concern.
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#16 - 2012-11-15 08:05:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tul Breetai
EglantinFinfleur wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
The entire list is there so buyers can see what is available at what prices. If the lowest price order was only offering 3 items and I wanted 10, I would like to see the price of both the lowest order and the next order up as well, to see if that is the station I want to fly to or if it would be better to fly elsewhere.

The present system also has a convenient feature: You can buy more items at once than are being offered by the lowest order. Example say I want 10 items and these are the orders:

3 at 500.33
8 at 500.45

The prices are close, so I'm willing to trade time for ISK. I click on the higher price order and set the quantity to 10. The order at 500.33 is filled, along with 7 items from the order at 500.45. I got to spend 500.45 for all 10 items, but I got all 10 items with only one purchase.

With what you are suggesting the above would no longer work, making buying stuff less convenient for everyone just so you alone could get what you want.


My suggestion was just a streamlining of the current system, to prove how obtuse it is. The point is not there.

Anyway, in such a design, you could have the lowest price available, the quantity of items offered at that price, and the total quantity of items available at whatever price in the location you choose. When buying more items than available at the lowest price, there could be a warning indicating the price to add to fill the remained of your transaction. How inconvenient would it be?

As of now, the sales list is just one annoying wall of text that makes zero sense, since you can't see who sells, nor can you choose who to buy from.





Tul Breetai wrote:
EglantinFinfleur wrote:
I get that it may be easier from a design point of view, but it brings another issue. What about boycott? If entity x has a beef with entity y, there is no way for x to blacklist y and prevent its goods to appear on x's list. I don't think it makes a lot of sense in a so-called harsh and cold sci-fi universe. Does it?



How are you going to boycott when their name isn't known until you actually buy from them? On the grounds that they are .01 ISKing... which is absurd. As absurd as killing carebears "for being carebears."

.



Precisely. Why is there no way to know beforehand the name of the entity you might be buying from, and why is there no way to boycott/blacklist particular entities, preventing you from accidentaly buying from them?
Also, why can't you blacklist entities in the sales direction, preventing them to buy from you?

I thought that it was a harsh universe and that people were allowed to be obnoxious to their heart's content, prentending to be Veldspar Defence Force (lol! so randum :DDD) and ganking miners. Objectively, 0.1 players are immensely more annoying than miners, since you have to suffer their walls of numbers every goddamn time you buy a module.

I don't have any way to penalize them for their distasteful activities. Why is that?



I can see the use in knowing the client so you can boycott, but it's not really an effective way of pvping them: they'll just have one less customer... whereas .01 ISKing is the very foundation of market pvp in EVE. How are you complaining about the lack of market pvp by criticizing the single most effective, existing market pvp? If you wanted to know their name to undercut them, fine, but just undercut everyone. Same result.

EDIT: and before anyone says it, adding names would barely help the undercutting thing. If you don't already know about which products they sell where by other means, you're not likely to just stumble upon their orders while browsing market.

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.
MinefieldS
1 Sick Duck Standss on something
#17 - 2012-11-15 08:38:06 UTC
Tul Breetai wrote:


How are you going to boycott when their name isn't known until you actually buy from them? On the grounds that they are .01 ISKing... which is absurd. As absurd as killing carebears "for being carebears."

It's absurd only in carebearland.
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#18 - 2012-11-15 08:50:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tul Breetai
MinefieldS wrote:
Tul Breetai wrote:


How are you going to boycott when their name isn't known until you actually buy from them? On the grounds that they are .01 ISKing... which is absurd. As absurd as killing carebears "for being carebears."

It's absurd only in carebearland.



Killing carebears who mine ice to drive up ice prices: not absurd.
Killing carebears who mine in your system to monopolize belts: not absurd.
Killing carebears who stray into low to take their stuff/ pad killboard: not absurd.

Killing carebears just because they are carebears, a fictional, wildly redundant strawman of an enemy that exists only because of internet bandwagonism and EVE fashion: vain and frivolous. You're killing people YOU identify loosely as "carebear" for the express purpose of telling other people you kill carebears.

Edit to remain on-topic: and that is the explanation for my analogy.

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.
EglantinFinfleur
Ecpyrosis
#19 - 2012-11-15 09:38:41 UTC  |  Edited by: EglantinFinfleur
Peri Simone wrote:
I don't think the problem you're trying to highlight actually exists for anyone else. Eve needs a trading system, and at some point along the line somebody's had to say okay, this is how it's going to be. Could they have done it a different way? Yes. Should they change it because a player doesn't like seeing a page of irregular numbers? No, that would be nuts.

The practice of 0.01 isking might annoy you (and obviously does), but from the point of view of the trader it's entirely sensible. There are very few situations in which I'd want to lower my prices more than I absolutely have to, and creating a visually pleasing row of zeros simply isn't a concern.



Should they change it because boycotting sellers or blacklisting buyers makes sense from a market pvp standpoint? you tell me.
In such a context, a buyer like me could boycott 0.01 players, who could still pledge their trade and sell to people who want to save a couple isk on each purchase.




Tul Breetai wrote:

I can see the use in knowing the client so you can boycott, but it's not really an effective way of pvping them: they'll just have one less customer... whereas .01 ISKing is the very foundation of market pvp in EVE. How are you complaining about the lack of market pvp by criticizing the single most effective, existing market pvp? If you wanted to know their name to undercut them, fine, but just undercut everyone. Same result.

EDIT: and before anyone says it, adding names would barely help the undercutting thing. If you don't already know about which products they sell where by other means, you're not likely to just stumble upon their orders while browsing market.



Well, for people like me, it's really an effective way of pvping them. A penny not earned is a penny lost, and I'd feel better knowing my isk never goes to people so much into chrematistics that their main form of income is updating market orders, undercutting by 0.01 isk each time. Those people could also continue to do so, as stated above.

Also, If I don't undercut as of now, I can't pvp against them atm, can I?

More than adding names, a market boycott/blacklist list would serve all purposes at once:
- See people undercutting, leading to numbers like 78998.52? you can boycott them
- Have a beef with a miner corp? boycott them, and blacklist them, you won't buy from them nor can they buy from you.
- Want to strange a particular entity and asphyxiate its supply?
etc etc

Is there any good reason not to be able to blacklist or boycott entities?

Wouldn't it be market pvp at its finest?
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#20 - 2012-11-15 09:50:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tul Breetai
EglantinFinfleur wrote:
More than adding names, a market boycott/blacklist list would serve all purposes at once:
- See people undercutting, leading to numbers like 78998.52? you can boycott them
- Have a beef with a miner corp? boycott them, and blacklist them, you won't buy from them nor can they buy from you.
- Want to strange a particular entity and asphyxiate its supply?
etc etc

Is there any good reason not to be able to blacklist or boycott entities?

Wouldn't it be market pvp at its finest?



Point 2: Sure, that's a feature I can accept.
Point 3: "

Point 1: vain and frivolous. .01 ISKers are looking for turnover, not petty games. This is how the market system works in EVE.

But yeah, market boycotts would probably get some use. Bring it up in f&i. You'd need to drum up support for the basic idea before arguing about the specific implementation, which is what this thread has devolved into.

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.
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