These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The Right to AFK Mine - The Dystopia of 2015 is coming

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#101 - 2012-11-15 16:12:09 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:

There is no such thing as "real" power in eve when it comes to the players and who has power. It all comes down to how many turrents your power grid allows you to fit to blow clones back to a med bay.

If miners want to go AFK and get all butthurt about it all, just ignore them. Plain and simple. If you come across them report them as bots and then blast them out of the vacuum. They'll learn eventually.


I disagree. EVE has managed something no other MMO has, and that is to model how power works in the real world. My power is directly analogous to what I can make you do, or how I can punish you for doing something I don't want you to do.

Sooner or later, those "sheep" you are herding will rise and you will fall. It is just a matter of time and that "real" power will just be redistributed or dissipate. Those is the cycle of the real world.

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#102 - 2012-11-15 16:12:13 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

AFK gaming IN GENERAL on ANYTHING is not gaming. If you're afk, then you're not playing. If you're not playing, then why are you here? Let's put aside the economical effects of afk ice mining with multiple accounts and characters for a second, and take a look at the basic premise of playing games - you're supposed to actually play them.


One may also enter a restaurant, eat an appetizer and decline the whole rest of the meal afterwards.
As long as he pays for the meal, no one has the right to tell him a iota.


Perhaps I worded this wrong. I do that sometimes.

Let me put it this way.

If you're not playing the game, then what right do you have to dictate to CCP or other players how you should be treated in it?

What right do you have to the resources you're whisking away from players who put in the effort?

Your analogy is fallacious because it assumes that people would be stupid enough to pay for a full meal and just eat the appetizer when they could just as easily buy themselves a box of crackers and dip, or get a cheeseburger from maccas instead. People aren't that stupid, though, and EVE isn't a restaurant. The point I'm making has nothing to do with what you have the right to do - the point I'm making is what you *DON'T* have the right to expect if you're not playing the game.


So by your logic, the 2nd string quarter back who may make it to the superbowl, but not play because the first string is need all game, deserves no ring? Or what of the defense? Should they only get 1/2 a ring and 1/2 the accolades because they only played half the game?

Look at what you are saying.... My way is the only way to play and my definition of playing is the only valid one. How elitist and poorly thought out you sound. Grow up and stop trying to dictate how people enjoy their free time.

Also, you obviously have no clue how ice mining works. A mackinaw holds 34 pieces of ice in its ore hold. You can mine a piece of ice about every minute. What you are saying is that the person who stares at their screen for 30 minutes watching the ice pile up is some how better than the guy who has their laptop next to them, whike watching a tv show and putting in the exact same effort. Really? It bothers you that much?

The only difference between the two us that the guy watching his screen is slightly safer because he may see a gank coming faster. Otherwise the two people are no different, they just choose to watch different things.

And what of the guy who is doing the same, but instead of tv, is flicking through images on fukung.net on the in game browser? Is he not playing as well?


There is that dumb "play style" fallacy again, it just never dies. It's the go to accusation for anyone who doens't have a real argument (and you don't lady, that football analogy was terrible).

Why does mining attract people who can't use simply logic?
Kainotomiu Ronuken
koahisquad
#103 - 2012-11-15 16:15:20 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:

There is no such thing as "real" power in eve when it comes to the players and who has power. It all comes down to how many turrents your power grid allows you to fit to blow clones back to a med bay.

If miners want to go AFK and get all butthurt about it all, just ignore them. Plain and simple. If you come across them report them as bots and then blast them out of the vacuum. They'll learn eventually.


I disagree. EVE has managed something no other MMO has, and that is to model how power works in the real world. My power is directly analogous to what I can make you do, or how I can punish you for doing something I don't want you to do.

Sooner or later, those "sheep" you are herding will rise and you will fall. It is just a matter of time and that "real" power will just be redistributed or dissipate. Those is the cycle of the real world.

If you refer to the AFK Ice Miners when you say 'those "sheep"', then no, they won't. The obvious problem is that they are AFK. The next-most obvious problem is that they are motivated purely by ISK - they are too self-interested to worry about stopping bumpers from bumping anybody but themselves. The third most obvious problem is that they're miners: they don't have any way to rise against us. The fourth most obvious problem is that y'all have been saying that ever since we started and we've not seen it. The fifth most obvious problem is this.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#104 - 2012-11-15 16:18:20 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:


I disagree. EVE has managed something no other MMO has, and that is to model how power works in the real world. My power is directly analogous to what I can make you do, or how I can punish you for doing something I don't want you to do.

Sooner or later, those "sheep" you are herding will rise and you will fall. It is just a matter of time and that "real" power will just be redistributed or dissipate. Those is the cycle of the real world.[/quote]

Hey, I'm not herding anyone. Hell, I'm as much a miner as anyone, or was anyways. I still proudly display medals I was awarded by my first corp for going above and beyond the call of duty in terms of resource generation.

I don't agree with the New Order in a lot of ways. I don't particularly agree with the assertion that every miner is a bot waiting to happen for instance. I don't even go out bumping, mostly because I spend most of my time in low-sec these days with an RP-PvP corp, valiantly attacking the empires on behalf of Sansha's Nation. Hell, in a lot of ways the guys in the New Order are likely to laugh at me more than they are at you.

But heres the thing.

I know how this game works. I've seen the ACTUAL sheep, the ones who can't be bothered to learn how to play the game properly, with an understanding of power politics, and how useful friends are, complain time and time again. They sometimes get angry enough that they start making Proveldtariat-like moves, only with less trolls.

They never get anywhere because they haven't grasped the central point of EVE. You can make other people do things, or stop them from doing things you don't want them to do.
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#105 - 2012-11-15 16:37:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenneth O'Hara
Kainotomiu Ronuken wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:

There is no such thing as "real" power in eve when it comes to the players and who has power. It all comes down to how many turrents your power grid allows you to fit to blow clones back to a med bay.

If miners want to go AFK and get all butthurt about it all, just ignore them. Plain and simple. If you come across them report them as bots and then blast them out of the vacuum. They'll learn eventually.


I disagree. EVE has managed something no other MMO has, and that is to model how power works in the real world. My power is directly analogous to what I can make you do, or how I can punish you for doing something I don't want you to do.

Sooner or later, those "sheep" you are herding will rise and you will fall. It is just a matter of time and that "real" power will just be redistributed or dissipate. Those is the cycle of the real world.

If you refer to the AFK Ice Miners when you say 'those "sheep"', then no, they won't. The obvious problem is that they are AFK. The next-most obvious problem is that they are motivated purely by ISK - they are too self-interested to worry about stopping bumpers from bumping anybody but themselves. The third most obvious problem is that they're miners: they don't have any way to rise against us. The fourth most obvious problem is that y'all have been saying that ever since we started and we've not seen it. The fifth most obvious problem is this.

If they are legitimately AFK, then it is a problem. I have been bumped and ganked in a mining barge and I wasn't AFK. Rifter warps in, I was already pre-aligned and I start to warp off. The rifter throws on his MWD, bumps me and then a cane and nado came out of nowhere. Then im warp scrambed. I got away before I was podded.

When I mine on my main now, I run d-scans at about 2 or 3 AU depending on the system and warp to another object and cloak while I keep track of the belt I just left on d-scans.

Granted there are legitmate AFK miners. But they do learn ways to get around it.

Edit: Hey Tib, your quoting is a little messed up on your last post and kinda through me off when I was reading. Not trying to be a ****, just helping anyone else trying to read this thread.

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _
Kainotomiu Ronuken
koahisquad
#106 - 2012-11-15 16:41:56 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
If they are legitimately AFK, then it is a problem. I have been bumped and ganked in a mining barge and I wasn't AFK. Rifter warps in, I was already pre-aligned and I start to warp off. The rifter throws on his MWD, bumps me and then a cane and nado came out of nowhere. Then im warp scrambed. I got away before I was podded.

When I mine on my main now, I run d-scans at about 2 or 3 AU depending on the system and warp to another object and cloak while I keep track of the belt I just left on d-scans.

Granted there are legitmate AFK miners. But they do learn ways to get around it.

Edit: Hey Tib, your quoting is a little messed up on your lost post and kinda through me off when I was reading. Not trying to be a ****, just helping anyone else trying to read this thread.

Uh... Congrats? You escaped a bumper/ganker once. That's great, but it hardly counts as 'rising up' and it's hardly going to cause us to 'fall'.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#107 - 2012-11-15 16:43:48 UTC
Kainotomiu Ronuken wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
If they are legitimately AFK, then it is a problem. I have been bumped and ganked in a mining barge and I wasn't AFK. Rifter warps in, I was already pre-aligned and I start to warp off. The rifter throws on his MWD, bumps me and then a cane and nado came out of nowhere. Then im warp scrambed. I got away before I was podded.

When I mine on my main now, I run d-scans at about 2 or 3 AU depending on the system and warp to another object and cloak while I keep track of the belt I just left on d-scans.

Granted there are legitmate AFK miners. But they do learn ways to get around it.

Edit: Hey Tib, your quoting is a little messed up on your lost post and kinda through me off when I was reading. Not trying to be a ****, just helping anyone else trying to read this thread.

Uh... Congrats? You escaped a bumper/ganker once. That's great, but it hardly counts as 'rising up' and it's hardly going to cause us to 'fall'.


Indeed! But congrats to that one miner for learning how to avoid getting bumped. You no longer play in a manner that is indistinguishable to being AFK and hence can avoid getting bumped.
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#108 - 2012-11-15 16:51:27 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Kainotomiu Ronuken wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
If they are legitimately AFK, then it is a problem. I have been bumped and ganked in a mining barge and I wasn't AFK. Rifter warps in, I was already pre-aligned and I start to warp off. The rifter throws on his MWD, bumps me and then a cane and nado came out of nowhere. Then im warp scrambed. I got away before I was podded.

When I mine on my main now, I run d-scans at about 2 or 3 AU depending on the system and warp to another object and cloak while I keep track of the belt I just left on d-scans.

Granted there are legitmate AFK miners. But they do learn ways to get around it.

Edit: Hey Tib, your quoting is a little messed up on your lost post and kinda through me off when I was reading. Not trying to be a ****, just helping anyone else trying to read this thread.

Uh... Congrats? You escaped a bumper/ganker once. That's great, but it hardly counts as 'rising up' and it's hardly going to cause us to 'fall'.


Indeed! But congrats to that one miner for learning how to avoid getting bumped. You no longer play in a manner that is indistinguishable to being AFK and hence can avoid getting bumped.

I bet y'all honestly believe I am a miner in high sec! Naw, I mine in Grav and Ladar sites out in low-sec and W-space. What these miners need is a tactician to lead them to war against all the greifers. Want happen soon so you all are safe for now but in time they will. Go ahead! Boast of your control over these "weak minded" miners who are actually just new players that don't know any better. One day, you will eat those words...

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#109 - 2012-11-15 16:53:51 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:


I bet y'all honestly believe I am a miner in high sec! Naw, I mine in Grav and Ladar sites out in low-sec and W-space. What these miners need is a tactician to lead them to war against all the greifers. Want happen soon so you all are safe for now but in time they will. Go ahead! Boast of your control over these "weak minded" miners who are actually just new players that don't know any better. One day, you will eat those words...


Make a guess at how many barges, exhumers, and other mining ships I've blown up. Go ahead. :)
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#110 - 2012-11-15 16:54:13 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Kainotomiu Ronuken wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
If they are legitimately AFK, then it is a problem. I have been bumped and ganked in a mining barge and I wasn't AFK. Rifter warps in, I was already pre-aligned and I start to warp off. The rifter throws on his MWD, bumps me and then a cane and nado came out of nowhere. Then im warp scrambed. I got away before I was podded.

When I mine on my main now, I run d-scans at about 2 or 3 AU depending on the system and warp to another object and cloak while I keep track of the belt I just left on d-scans.

Granted there are legitmate AFK miners. But they do learn ways to get around it.

Edit: Hey Tib, your quoting is a little messed up on your lost post and kinda through me off when I was reading. Not trying to be a ****, just helping anyone else trying to read this thread.

Uh... Congrats? You escaped a bumper/ganker once. That's great, but it hardly counts as 'rising up' and it's hardly going to cause us to 'fall'.


Indeed! But congrats to that one miner for learning how to avoid getting bumped. You no longer play in a manner that is indistinguishable to being AFK and hence can avoid getting bumped.

I bet y'all honestly believe I am a miner in high sec! Naw, I mine in Grav and Ladar sites out in low-sec and W-space. What these miners need is a tactician to lead them to war against all the greifers. Want happen soon so you all are safe for now but in time they will. Go ahead! Boast of your control over these "weak minded" miners who are actually just new players that don't know any better. One day, you will eat those words...


It took almost a decade of screwing with people to get even a modest fight out of miners, at the rate the Eating of words should occur sometime around 2023, just in time for the release of EVE Online: Geriatrix.
Kainotomiu Ronuken
koahisquad
#111 - 2012-11-15 16:55:58 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
I bet y'all honestly believe I am a miner in high sec! Naw, I mine in Grav and Ladar sites out in low-sec and W-space. What these miners need is a tactician to lead them to war against all the greifers. Want happen soon so you all are safe for now but in time they will. Go ahead! Boast of your control over these "weak minded" miners who are actually just new players that don't know any better. One day, you will eat those words...

Congratulations again on your superior mining skills.

As for your threats: You could at least have thought of something original to say about it.
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#112 - 2012-11-15 17:07:36 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Make a guess at how many barges, exhumers, and other mining ships I've blown up. Go ahead. :)


Don't know and don't care how big your EP is...

Jenn aSide wrote:
It took almost a decade of screwing with people to get even a modest fight out of miners, at the rate the Eating of words should occur sometime around 2023, just in time for the release of EVE Online: Geriatrix.

I wonder if you realize that CCP change/removed majority of the combat mining ships. So of course you're not going to get any that fight back. THEY CAN"T!!!!!

And when you do come across the few that invested in a combat ship with decent skills to fit properly, you all run like cowards and can't be found.
In my book, you are all cowards and nothing more.

Kainotomiu Ronuken wrote:
Congratulations again on your superior mining skills.

As for your threats: You could at least have thought of something original to say about it.

It's not a threat, it's the cycle of eve. You will fall from power or be knocked off by someone at sometime. It's not a matter of if but when.

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#113 - 2012-11-15 17:09:07 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:

It's not a threat, it's the cycle of eve. You will fall from power or be knocked off by someone at sometime. It's not a matter of if but when.



Contrary to popular belief history is not actually cyclical.

The answer is zero, by the way. I have zero interest in blowing up miners, but the more they whine the closer I get....
Kainotomiu Ronuken
koahisquad
#114 - 2012-11-15 17:11:14 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
It's not a threat, it's the cycle of eve. You will fall from power or be knocked off by someone at sometime. It's not a matter of if but when.

No it isn't.

Cycle of nullsec, perhaps. There's certainly more evidence that no nullsec organisation can hold power for ever. But miner bumpers? Of course they can; nobody wants them gone except miners, and miners aren't going to do anything about it.
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#115 - 2012-11-15 17:50:40 UTC
So I checked out the www.MinerBumping.com site... Wow. You guys are bullies. What's the matter? Did mommy not give you enough hugs growing up?

What you're doing is not dealing with a legitimate problem but harrassing players into buying permits which they don't need. You don't even care if they are AFK. You just want the isk form players without backbones buying "permits" It's extortion. From where I'm sitting, this whole bumping business is a front. Yet, in EVE, It's perfectly legal but still wrong. This "code" you speak of is a load of crap and frankly, you can shove it straight up your ***.

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord, ...when I lay my vengeance upon thee." ~Samuel L. Jackson, Pulp Fiction

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#116 - 2012-11-15 17:53:06 UTC
Kainotomiu Ronuken wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
It's not a threat, it's the cycle of eve. You will fall from power or be knocked off by someone at sometime. It's not a matter of if but when.

No it isn't.

Cycle of nullsec, perhaps. There's certainly more evidence that no nullsec organisation can hold power for ever. But miner bumpers? Of course they can; nobody wants them gone except miners, and miners aren't going to do anything about it.



If a miner gets bumped and wants to do something about it, they essentially cannot.

If the miner leaves the area after bumping and flies to station to obtain a 'revenge ship', and flies back, the Bumper is pretty much going to be gone and on to other things.

Bumping is an idiotic situation in thought and execution. Like a much earlier post said.....it comes across as pretty stupid to explain to someone, who has never played EVE, the 'excitement' of Bumping.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#117 - 2012-11-15 17:55:46 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
So I checked out the www.MinerBumping.com site... Wow. You guys are bullies. What's the matter? Did mommy not give you enough hugs growing up?

What you're doing is not dealing with a legitimate problem but harrassing players into buying permits which they don't need. You don't even care if they are AFK. You just want the isk form players without backbones buying "permits" It's extortion. From where I'm sitting, this whole bumping business is a front. Yet, in EVE, It's perfectly legal but still wrong. This "code" you speak of is a load of crap and frankly, you can shove it straight up your ***.

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord, ...when I lay my vengeance upon thee." ~Samuel L. Jackson, Pulp Fiction

Yet another "nonviolent" type putting his playstyle above others' in a bid for self-identified moral superiority.

Minerbumpers may have not gotten enough hugs. I guess that's not an unreasonable assumption.

But what could mommy have done to spur such intolerance for gamesmanship in high-sec miners, then?

It gives me the creeps just thinking about it. Roll

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#118 - 2012-11-15 18:00:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Darth Gustav wrote:

Yet another "nonviolent" type putting his playstyle above others' in a bid for self-identified moral superiority.

Minerbumpers may have not gotten enough hugs. I guess that's not an unreasonable assumption.

But what could mommy have done to spur such intolerance for gamesmanship in high-sec miners, then?

It gives me the creeps just thinking about it. Roll



It is not 'gamesmanship' at all. Just WOW !

It's an interruption of pre-existing game features. It disrupts the process actually.

It's the equivalent of someone sweeping away the Monopoly board setup suddenly with their hand.

If that's gamemanship, I'm Marilyn Monroe.



edit:

Forcing a 52 Card Pickup is also a good analogy.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#119 - 2012-11-15 18:02:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

Yet another "nonviolent" type putting his playstyle above others' in a bid for self-identified moral superiority.

Minerbumpers may have not gotten enough hugs. I guess that's not an unreasonable assumption.

But what could mommy have done to spur such intolerance for gamesmanship in high-sec miners, then?

It gives me the creeps just thinking about it. Roll



It is not 'gamesmanship' at all. Just WOW !

It's an interruption of pre-existing game features. It disrupts the process actually.

It's the equivalent of someone sweeping away the Monopoly board setup suddenly with their hand.

If that's gamemanship, I'm Marilyn Monroe.

Sir, this is a game about competition.

If I disrupt your play in a way that potentially brings me gains in-game, I have out-gamed you.

If I taunt you with the possibility and you just give in ahead of time, that's gamesmanship.

Gamesmanship.

I rest my case. You're just plain wrong.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#120 - 2012-11-15 18:02:57 UTC
Kainotomiu Ronuken wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
There is no such thing as "real" power in eve when it comes to the players and who has power. It all comes down to how many turrents your power grid allows you to fit to blow clones back to a med bay. If miners want to go AFK and get all butthurt about it all, just ignore them. Plain and simple. If you come across them report them as bots and then blast them out of the vacuum. They'll learn eventually.
Of course there is real power in EVE. My power over miners resides in the fact that I am able to stop them doing what they want to do (mining) regardless of their own intentions or wishes. That is power.
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
So by your logic, the 2nd string quarter back who may make it to the superbowl, but not play because the first string is need all game, deserves no ring? Or what of the defense? Should they only get 1/2 a ring and 1/2 the accolades because they only played half the game? Look at what you are saying.... My way is the only way to play and my definition of playing is the only valid one. How elitist and poorly thought out you sound. Grow up and stop trying to dictate how people enjoy their free time. Also, you obviously have no clue how ice mining works. A mackinaw holds 34 pieces of ice in its ore hold. You can mine a piece of ice about every minute. What you are saying is that the person who stares at their screen for 30 minutes watching the ice pile up is some how better than the guy who has their laptop next to them, whike watching a tv show and putting in the exact same effort. Really? It bothers you that much? The only difference between the two us that the guy watching his screen is slightly safer because he may see a gank coming faster. Otherwise the two people are no different, they just choose to watch different things. And what of the guy who is doing the same, but instead of tv, is flicking through images on fukung.net on the in game browser? Is he not playing as well?
This may surprise you, but the New Order does not really care whether or not the miner is in front of the keyboard. For our purposes, 'AFK' means 'not interacting with the game'. If the miner is just watching his hold fill up and not chatting in Local, corp chat, private chats or interacting with any other player in this MMO, he is wasting space and we will bump him for it.
So if a miner proves he's not AFK and not a bot by responding in Local, the New Order won't bump him? Or does he still have to pay the 100mil fee?