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Revelation/Archon or Moros/Thanatos?
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Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1 - 2012-11-13 10:24:58 UTC
I'm looking to train into one "set" of capitals, and I was just wondering the consensus on strongest one. Any thoughts?

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Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#2 - 2012-11-13 10:31:27 UTC
Amarr. They make the most sense. Armor tanking, armor repping carrier with energy transfer (energy warfare is paramount in capital engagements) and a dreadnaught that never has to reload for POS bashing.

I see no downsides.
Lucy Oreless
Rise of Rephaim
#3 - 2012-11-13 11:00:34 UTC
Amarr!

 I did not have sexual relations to THAT woman....
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#4 - 2012-11-13 11:02:16 UTC
Archon/Moros.

Moros is the best Dreadnaught by a fair margin, and the Archon is the best Carrier... again by a large margin.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-11-13 11:18:35 UTC
Like the guy above said, archon = best carrier, moros = best dread.

that said, if youre going to ONLY go for one race (understandable tbh), you should go amarr.
thanatos doesnt hold a candle to an archon, archon is by far and away the best carrier.
on the other hand, a revelation is still the second best dread and can certainly hold its own compared to a moros where the thanny just cant compared to the archon.

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Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-11-13 15:20:47 UTC
Plus the Moros is so ridiculously superior to the other dreads that it wouldn't surprise me to see it nerfed by the time the ship balancing train rolls that way in the summer or so.

Mind you, you could make the same argument about the Archon. Although in that case boosts to the other carriers might be preferred.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-11-13 16:56:47 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Plus the Moros is so ridiculously superior to the other dreads that it wouldn't surprise me to see it nerfed by the time the ship balancing train rolls that way in the summer or so.

Mind you, you could make the same argument about the Archon. Although in that case boosts to the other carriers might be preferred.


the difference is the carriers have been unchanged (largely) since they were intruduced.
severe moros superiority is a fairly new thing.

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Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#8 - 2012-11-13 17:16:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Syrias Bizniz
Well, since there is no 'Amarr Capital Ships' skill but every race has an own skill for each of their Capital Ships, there is really no need to limit yourself to only one race of capitals. The skilltime difference between a Moros and a Relevation for example, should you think only Amarr is cool, is somewhere within 30-40 days. This is Gallente Battle Ship to 5. Since both are Armor, there isn't even the need to train for Capital Shield Boosters for example. So basically, go for the Archon. And if you like the Moros, go for it. If you like the Naglfar, go for it. If you like the Phoenix, go for either Relevation, Moros or Naglfar.
Sidenote: Skilling for the Naglfar requires 2 Capital Weapon Systems. However, on your way to the Naglfar - with Archon already at hand - you mystically unlock the Bhaalgorn. Which is also a very nice tool concerning capital ship warfare.
And when looking at the incredible horror that Citadel Cruises / Torps are, it is very likely that they will a) get buffed or b) the Naglfar will be brought in line as a 3 gun Dreadnought. However, this might take some years. Or decades.


Edit: And oh yeah, the Naglfar looks really fcking awesome.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#9 - 2012-11-13 18:14:27 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
If you like the Moros, go for it. If you like the Revelation, go for it. If you like the Phoenix or the Naglfar, go for either Relevation or Moros.


FTFY
Noisrevbus
#10 - 2012-11-13 18:21:09 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Skillplan points


It's a shame we don't see those perspectives applied to more ship-classes by more pilots.

It's a general truth.
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2012-11-13 18:54:34 UTC
Yeah, I don't think it's a good idea to work towards one race just yet, better to bide your time and work on getting the common supporting skills trained up to IV's and V's. We've had our first hint at some of the changes in store for after Retribution including this little gem:

Quote:
Changing skill requirements for capital ships from Racial Battleships 5 to 4, but introducing or increasing other skills to keep the same overall training time requirements
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-11-13 18:54:37 UTC
Archon is superior to the Thanatos in virtually all respects nowadays. It has a superior tank, superior cap, and is much more useful in a Slowcat/Pantheon fleet due to bonused cap transfers. Thanatos used to be nice for ratting, but sentry/heavy drones are superior for ratting carriers due to drone damage mods, so Archon is no worse than a Thanatos for ratting now. Only advantage of a Thanatos is that it can rep both shields and armor.

Revelation and Moros are both solid dreads. Blaster moros is considered the best dread in the game due to its combination of tracking and damage output, especially in anti-subcap configuration. But Revelation is a very solid ship as well.

In short, if you don't have an aesthetic preference, I'd go for the Archon/Revelation.
Lord Calus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-11-13 19:32:12 UTC
Amarr for both. Having to track down XL ammo can be a pain, and only having to buy your ammo once is a blessing.

When the call comes down and everyone is furiously trying to get fuel, topes, ammo, drugs, etc. You have 1 less thing to worry about.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#14 - 2012-11-13 19:38:16 UTC
Lord Calus wrote:
Amarr for both. Having to track down XL ammo can be a pain, and only having to buy your ammo once is a blessing.

When the call comes down and everyone is furiously trying to get fuel, topes, ammo, drugs, etc. You have 1 less thing to worry about.




New in stock: PREPARATION - It's magic!
Lord Calus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-11-13 19:57:22 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Lord Calus wrote:
Amarr for both. Having to track down XL ammo can be a pain, and only having to buy your ammo once is a blessing.

When the call comes down and everyone is furiously trying to get fuel, topes, ammo, drugs, etc. You have 1 less thing to worry about.




New in stock: PREPARATION - It's magic!


Don't you dare try and force me to be ready for ops that are posted on 2 different forums and my ingame calendar!! Don't you dare!
Sunglasses At Midnight
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-11-13 23:42:45 UTC
Meanwhile, what's wrong with the Nidhoggur? It just looks like it's not as tanky as the other carriers, but looks like it does a pretty good job of logistics whereas the Thanatos brings the pain and the Archon and Chimera take the hits.

I really don't have any experience with capships, but don't really see why the Nidhoggur isn't an option here, especially if you might use it for fleets as well. I know the question is really about Amarr vs. Gallente capships, but I'm just curious.

The Naglfar just looks like it suffers because it can only fit two guns, and capship missiles suck. Maybe it'll get four guns one day (he said hopefully)?
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#17 - 2012-11-14 00:04:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Syrias Bizniz
Thing with the Nidghoggur is it's fitting. It's CPU and Powergrid alow it to EITHER be Local Armor Tanked and have Shield Transfers - or vice versa. Unless you start getting awesome and use it in well-skilled environments, where you don't fit local tank at all unless necessary. Which requires other carriers in fitting range. Next thing is, it's poor capacitor compared to a Archon. It will have a hard time not capping out when in triage and taking pressure before the cycle ends. And then there's the low EHP this ship gains. Whereas an Archon can be doomsdayproof, a Nidhoggur will just die to the first Titan that fires it's shiny lazerdeathray. Or missilespamoutofhell.

So unless CCP either gives it more grid to make it visibly an armor tanker, or give it more CPU so it can be shieldtanked while giving shield love it will be ... 'the disabled kid'. And everyone tackles the disabled kid, just for the lulz of it.


Edit: If i'd train for a carrier now, it would be the Nidhoggur though. **** efficiency, it looks sweet. And it reps poses like a boss.
Sunglasses At Midnight
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-11-14 00:14:07 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Thing with the Nidghoggur is it's fitting. It's CPU and Powergrid alow it to EITHER be Local Armor Tanked and have Shield Transfers - or vice versa. Unless you start getting awesome and use it in well-skilled environments, where you don't fit local tank at all unless necessary. Which requires other carriers in fitting range. Next thing is, it's poor capacitor compared to a Archon. It will have a hard time not capping out when in triage and taking pressure before the cycle ends. And then there's the low EHP this ship gains. Whereas an Archon can be doomsdayproof, a Nidhoggur will just die to the first Titan that fires it's shiny lazerdeathray. Or missilespamoutofhell.

So unless CCP either gives it more grid to make it visibly an armor tanker, or give it more CPU so it can be shieldtanked while giving shield love it will be ... 'the disabled kid'. And everyone tackles the disabled kid, just for the lulz of it.


Edit: If i'd train for a carrier now, it would be the Nidhoggur though. **** efficiency, it looks sweet. And it reps poses like a boss.


I must say, I completely agree with the last bit of the post, it'd be the one I shoot for.

Interesting about the fitting issues, though. Maybe CCP will realize that the versatility of the Minmatar ships fitting- wise isn't really something that carries over well into Capships.

EFT throws back some impressive numbers from the Nidhoggur, but then again, it's capships we're talking about here, all their numbers are impressive (especially the pricetags!). I don't really understand, background lore notwithstanding, why the Archon should have such a nice capacitor. Amarr ships have good capacitors for lasers... so why does the Archon have such a good one? It's a bit odd, if you ask me. Maybe one day we'll see capital rebalances as well as subcapital rebalances.
Lord Calus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-11-14 14:28:46 UTC
The problem is having a homogeneous tank across your cap fleet. SInce shield tanking was so gimped until recently, MOST supers in the game are armour. The same rules for subcaps apply in this case. Don't mix tank types in your fleet!!

The reason why chimera and nidhoggur are less than optimal ships to fly is because they just cannot be armour fitted well enough to not be a liability. This is also the reason the archon stands head and shoulders above the other carriers for most combat roles. The 5% resist bonus, coupled with the extended armour and energy x-fer range make it the ideal ship to absorb punishment and rep the other ships in fleet with the appropriate reps.

That said, the nidhoggur is the best POS/Station/POCO/whatever repper in the game. I just would never taken it into a combat scenario. There is a reason why nidhoggurs are usually primary in large cap engagements. The squish factor, and the fact that if they are left alone they will rep the crap out of everything else.

The other points are covered sufficiently elsewhere, except the dude whinging about why armarr have stronger capacitor.
Atmospheric Pressure
Perkone
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-11-14 17:37:32 UTC
The main reason why the archon is superior to the other carriers is simply because it has no fitting issues and very very very good cap in comparison to the other ships.

Try getting decent cap on a triage chimera, lol.
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