These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[GALMIL] Intaki Liberated!

Author
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#41 - 2012-11-16 18:25:25 UTC
Remember kids, when the Amarr or Caldari take a planet it's called "conquest" and when the Gallente or Minmatar do it's called "liberation." Make sure to know the difference between these two words, because the word used is the only real difference there is.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#42 - 2012-11-16 18:47:52 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Remember kids, when the Amarr or Caldari take a planet it's called "conquest" and when the Gallente or Minmatar do it's called "liberation." Make sure to know the difference between these two words, because the word used is the only real difference there is.
Liberation involves freedom (Gallente, Minmatar). Conquest involves oppression (fascism, religious autocracy). The fact that you are confused about the difference between freedom and oppression does not surprise me.

In this particular case we are talking about Placid, a region of the Federation.
Diana Kim
Kenshin Katana.
United Caldari Space Command.
#43 - 2012-11-16 19:46:31 UTC
Placid, it's not a region of the Federation anymore. It is a property of the State that is currently occupied by federal oppressors.

About 'liberation' and 'occupation'.
Amarr bring faith, morality and teaching to peoples.
We bring progress, technological advances and prosperity.
But minmatars and gallentes bring NOTHING. They only take your property, giving nothing in return. Nothing, called "freedom". You can't eat freedom, you can't sleep on freedom, you can't warm yourself with freedom. You can only die in freedom.
And the worst thing, is that some peoples (mostly stupid ones) buy this freedom, this chaos, emptiness and void. Why? Because gallentean beurocrates and politicians sell this nothing with tinsel of beauty words (from their point of view) like "liberation".
In fact, we have to save people from such liberations and freedom.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Gussarde en Welle
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-11-16 20:02:28 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Placid, it's not a region of the Federation anymore. It is a property of the State that is currently occupied by federal oppressors.

About 'liberation' and 'occupation'.
Amarr bring faith, morality and teaching to peoples.
We bring progress, technological advances and prosperity.
But minmatars and gallentes bring NOTHING. They only take your property, giving nothing in return. Nothing, called "freedom". You can't eat freedom, you can't sleep on freedom, you can't warm yourself with freedom. You can only die in freedom.
And the worst thing, is that some peoples (mostly stupid ones) buy this freedom, this chaos, emptiness and void. Why? Because gallentean beurocrates and politicians sell this nothing with tinsel of beauty words (from their point of view) like "liberation".
In fact, we have to save people from such liberations and freedom.


I was wondering when we would hear from our favorite psychotic sociopath.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#45 - 2012-11-16 20:07:21 UTC
She's not wrong.
Gussarde en Welle
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2012-11-16 20:47:29 UTC
He that would trade his autonomy for peace of mind deserves neither.

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#47 - 2012-11-16 20:58:12 UTC
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
He that would trade his autonomy for peace of mind deserves neither.



If you say so, but I think that sounds rather trite.

Also incorrect.

The basis of every society is a trade of a certain amount of freedom of action in exchange for security. I believe even your Federation has its social contracts, no?
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#48 - 2012-11-16 21:07:46 UTC
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
He that would trade his autonomy for peace of mind deserves neither.


What in all the ancestors' names would make you think this true, Sir? I trade away my autonomous right to sleep until noon every day for the peace of mind of a secure paycheque. Does this make me unworthy of rest or reward?
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#49 - 2012-11-16 21:10:06 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
He that would trade his autonomy for peace of mind deserves neither.


What in all the ancestors' names would make you think this true, Sir? I trade away my autonomous right to sleep until noon every day for the peace of mind of a secure paycheque. Does this make me unworthy of rest or reward?


I would love to sleep in till noon every day. Sadly, utopia will not build itself.

It takes a surprisingly large amount of energy, in fact!
Gussarde en Welle
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2012-11-16 21:42:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Gussarde en Welle
Logical fallacy by weak analogy for both of you. Smile

Yes, yes, I surrender a small amount of autonomy when I work a job. I also can leave the job or get fired. Every person that makes a living in capitalist markets experiences this. That is not the same type of autonomy as say being able to vote for what one believes in, to be able to choose one's leaders or whatever one wishes to do for a living, to believe and say and do and love whatever and whoever one wants without being subject to punishment under some Corporate or State bylaw.

Saying that "everybody surrenders some autonomy for some reward" is like saying "everyone has to have faith." Well, I may have faith in the theory of gravity, but that's substantially different from faith in a God. One chooses to enter a contract. Although there is some sense of obligation, it is still an exercise in autonomy; one may violate the contract or abandon it. This is wholly unlike, for example having nanites and cybernetic implants implanted into one's neocortex that synchronize one's brainwaves and subjugate the will so that one obeys every command of Sansha Kuvakei.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#51 - 2012-11-16 21:57:07 UTC
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
Logical fallacy by weak analogy for both of you. Smile

Yes, yes, I surrender a small amount of autonomy when I work a job. I also can leave the job or get fired. Every person that makes a living in capitalist markets experiences this. That is not the same type of autonomy as say being able to vote for what one believes in, to be able to choose one's leaders or whatever one wishes to do for a living, to believe and say and do and love whatever and whoever one wants without being subject to punishment under some Corporate or State bylaw.

Saying that "everybody surrenders some autonomy for some reward" is like saying "everyone has to have faith." Well, I may have faith in the theory of gravity, but that's substantially different from faith in a God. One chooses to enter a contract. Although there is some sense of obligation, it is still an exercise in autonomy; one may violate the contract or abandon it. This is wholly unlike, for example having nanites and cybernetic implants implanted into one's neocortex that synchronize one's brainwaves and subjugate the will so that one obeys every command of Sansha Kuvakei.


Replace "Wake up and go to work" with "i will not punch my neighbor in the nose even when he really pisses me off".

Capsuleers have absolute autonomy.

Look at how well that is working out.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#52 - 2012-11-16 22:09:42 UTC
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
Logical fallacy by weak analogy for both of you.


Oho, Sir. If you wish to be formal in your descriptions of logical argument, then I shall most happily provide. The security of rigorous definitions provide clear direction and a level playing field.

First, note that I did not posit a position, I asked a question, and illuminated this question with an example. Thus your accusation of fallacy is misplaced, as I had no prepositions from which to draw a conclusion. I was asking for clarification.

Secondly, I notice in your reply that you have not answered my question. Instead you have chosen to expand on your definition of "autonomy" and how it is sacrificied, postulating that some sacrifices perserve autonomy while others do not. This is the fallacy of ignoratio elenchi, the irrelevant conclusion. It is true that some bargains made are irreversible, but it does not answer the question.

I do apologize, though, I was brief and vague in my asking earlier, no doubt leading you down this path. I will try again.

Why do you believe it such that an individual who trades autonomy for peace of mind deserves neither? Why do you feel that the sacrifice of ones' self-direction in order to purchase happiness deserves subjugation and misery?
Gussarde en Welle
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2012-11-17 06:41:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Gussarde en Welle
Scherezad wrote:
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
Logical fallacy by weak analogy for both of you.


Oho, Sir. If you wish to be formal in your descriptions of logical argument, then I shall most happily provide. The security of rigorous definitions provide clear direction and a level playing field.

First, note that I did not posit a position, I asked a question, and illuminated this question with an example. Thus your accusation of fallacy is misplaced, as I had no prepositions from which to draw a conclusion. I was asking for clarification.

Secondly, I notice in your reply that you have not answered my question. Instead you have chosen to expand on your definition of "autonomy" and how it is sacrificied, postulating that some sacrifices perserve autonomy while others do not. This is the fallacy of ignoratio elenchi, the irrelevant conclusion. It is true that some bargains made are irreversible, but it does not answer the question.

I do apologize, though, I was brief and vague in my asking earlier, no doubt leading you down this path. I will try again.

Why do you believe it such that an individual who trades autonomy for peace of mind deserves neither? Why do you feel that the sacrifice of ones' self-direction in order to purchase happiness deserves subjugation and misery?


My darling Scherezad, I believe have answered your question, implicitly. In your most recent assertion, it seems that you assume that by my saying that one does not deserve the comforts one achieves by sacrificing one's autonomy, that this is a positive assertion that one deserves punishment if one does so. This would hold if one defines punishment as the absence of comfort. I have not and do not make this assertion.

Perhaps I have not completely understood your meaning, however. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten me?

If we weren't legally obligated to shoot at each other, I would totally discuss this with you over a candlelight dinner.
Natalcya Katla
Astropolitan Front
#54 - 2012-11-17 07:20:30 UTC
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
This is wholly unlike, for example having nanites and cybernetic implants implanted into one's neocortex that synchronize one's brainwaves and subjugate the will so that one obeys every command of Sansha Kuvakei.

Why is it that everybody seems to assume that Sansha Kuvakei has nothing better to do than to sit around all day micromanaging every single citizen of his Nation?

Daily life in the ranks of the Nation isn't all that different from daily life in the service of any other major power - and I've worked for most of them, so I should know.

The main differences are that the corridors are cleaner, the crew are never late, drunk or otherwise delinquent in duty, you can walk without a bodyguard without fear of getting kidnapped or mugged, and there's virtually no infighting loyalists inbetween.
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Stay Feral
#55 - 2012-11-17 07:51:49 UTC
Wow, the SIDF sure is working overtime today.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Gussarde en Welle
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2012-11-17 07:55:56 UTC
Natalcya Katla wrote:


The main differences are that the corridors are cleaner, the crew are never late, drunk or otherwise delinquent in duty, you can walk without a bodyguard without fear of getting kidnapped or mugged, and there's virtually no infighting loyalists inbetween.


I absolutely believe you. I bet that after-work parties have really lively conversation, too.
Natalcya Katla
Astropolitan Front
#57 - 2012-11-17 08:24:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Natalcya Katla
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
I absolutely believe you. I bet that after-work parties have really lively conversation, too.

If by "lively" you mean pleasant and civil, then yes.
Gussarde en Welle
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2012-11-17 08:49:11 UTC
Natalcya Katla wrote:
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
I absolutely believe you. I bet that after-work parties have really lively conversation, too.

If by "lively" you mean pleasant and civil, then yes.


By "lively," I mean engaging and complex, with a variety of viewpoints and approaches to discussion, replete with witty repartee.
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Stay Feral
#59 - 2012-11-17 10:15:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Andreus Ixiris
Hey, Natalcya, how come if Sansha Kuvakei can fix all of humanity's problems, he couldn't do anything about your face?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Natalcya Katla
Astropolitan Front
#60 - 2012-11-17 11:32:20 UTC
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
By "lively," I mean engaging and complex, with a variety of viewpoints and approaches to discussion, replete with witty repartee.

I think you'd be surprised.