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Do Sansha ships need a buff?
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Lugalzagezi666
#41 - 2011-10-05 16:10:40 UTC
tsukubasteve wrote:
...

People were offering suggestions whole the time before dominion expansion. And wise people saved you from plainly ******** idea of 10mn ab assault frigs for example. Sadly, there were so many minmatard whiners who dont give a **** about balance /most likely within ccp balancing team too/, that ccp just decided to give it a go. So thank to the "suggestions" of clueless people that listened to "omg minmatar are bad" hype and spammed the forums, we got massive projectile weapon overboost and resulting imbalance - among pirate ships too.

I understand that many people "are fine" with changes. Most of them are probably passionate kiters. Its true, they cant complain, ccp gave them foolproof instruments for their play style. Rest of the people who got bored with this minmatar/angel fagotry in the first three months... can wait for next expansions, because with dominion ccp basically stated, that kiting and range control is the only "right" playstyle for small to med pvp enviroment.

Btw, you were mentioning pvp in nightmare and here you are talking about beams. Clearly shows you have no idea about the ship. No sane person would go pvp with beam nightmare. Not only because its stupid idea, but because arty mach does it so much better too.

Personally if i was going to do gate/station hugging "solo" pvp with hg crystals, tengu booster and falcon alt/s - i would choose maelstrom. Up to point range it spits out dps comparable with nightmare, with almost the same tracking and selectable damage type, it tanks slightly better, has more drones and doesnt need 2 heavy noses just to keep the guns running. And its 800mil cheaper.

Ah, and people still do solo, most of them can be seen in dramiels, vagas, nanocanes, cynabals and machs. I bet its because they like to play "the underdogs."

tsukubasteve wrote:
If your flying something and it doesn't work well in the role you're using it for, then perhaps your flying the wrong ship. Try angel one?

fyp
Cambarus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2011-10-05 16:16:35 UTC
tsukubasteve wrote:

It's sad that we have to do this.

All these battleships were changed around, after extensive testing on sisi. If anyone wanted their input into it, they should have been there offering suggestions like those who did.
People were providing imput for the smaller sansha ships (especially the phantasm, as it has one slot less than all the other pirate faction cruisers and is arguably the worst of them) and they were completely ignored.
tsukubasteve wrote:

I'm fine with the way things turned out. The Mach is great in pve or pvp, the nightmare can still hit from massive range with beams and drop most stuff before it gets close. The rattlesnake is still a black hole that simply absorbs damage (almost none escapes out of it though). I just fail to see the reason to buff/nerf any of these ships, and more than they already have. If your flying something and it doesn't work well in the role you're using it for, then perhaps your flying the wrong ship. Try another one?
1) I keep telling people this in incursion chats, and it never seems to sink in:
Tanking is not a role. Sometimes bait has a use, but a ship known solely for its ability to tank is not exactly good bait material.
In PVE however, where the only objective, quantifiable means of determining how well you're doing is your isk/hour ratios, the way you do better is by increasing applied DPS, which means that every slot you put towards tanking (and therefore NOT applying damage) is a slot wasted. That said, the nightmare is fine as it is. It follows just about every other amarr ship out there: better at em/therm missions than its matari counterpart but worse at the others.

IMO the phantasm and succubus could both be fixed with the addition of an extra turret hardpoint. Multiple utility highs on a cruiser/frig are nice, but an extra turret would be nicer. Big smile

tsukubasteve wrote:

Personally, if I was going to PvP a faction battleship, I'd use navy/fleet issue ships. They're half the price, and still put out impressive dps. Not like anyone ever pvp's solo any more anyways, so bring your buddies and your logi alts and go pillage.
The fact that you think DPS is what makes pirate faction ships good speaks volumes about your knowledge (or lack thereof) wrt how they should be balanced.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#43 - 2011-10-05 16:42:27 UTC
i think we can all say that the nightmare is ok... but the tracking bonus is lame on the phantasm.... give that an optimal range bonus... that way you can armor hac with zealots and shield hac with phantasm

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Lugalzagezi666
#44 - 2011-10-05 17:05:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugalzagezi666
MeBiatch wrote:
i think we can all say that the nightmare is ok... but the tracking bonus is lame on the phantasm.... give that an optimal range bonus... that way you can armor hac with zealots and shield hac with phantasm


You are wrong. We cant all say that nightmare is ok, because simply - it is not. It doesnt offer anything compared to other pirate battleships like mach, bhaal or vindi, it doesnt even offer better tank than t1 maelstrom while having serious disadvantages like cap management.

Your suggestion about phantasm also points to fact, that you dont seem to understand, that shield hac gangs need fast and agile ships to work. Phantasm is slow and fat. Even with optimal bonus it would make terrible shield hac compared to cyna, vaga or even zealot.

It needs AT LEAST 2 more effective turrets, FULL flight of lights, pre-dominion hp and enough pg to fit.
Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2011-10-06 14:17:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Sphit Ker
So. I finally undocked my Nightmare today. Meh... It's obviously not good enough.

I tagged along an Alpha fleet (1400mm Maelstroms etc) to kill a Sansha mothership at the incursion in Fountain. OK It's not PVP but I'm glad it was not. It left me with the impression that a plain everyday normal Maelstrom is better in every way for 33% the price.

For a billion ISK, I got:
* DPS of Abaddon (~810 turret DPS as configured)
* Shield tank comparable to Maelstrom. (roughly 2.5k raw HP more. tut tut)
* Sexy hull with pokey bits.

I can't comment much about the capacitor since I had basilisk cap buddy who kept me caped up at never less than 60%. Yet, while sitting in the staging POS prior to deployment, running the hardeners and the AB alone dropped the cap just below stability threshold.

I didn't even shoot yet.

So, if it has a "role", what is it exactly? If I have to know how to "use it right", what is the right way exactly? Being an expensive loss mail certainly isn't a role.

I don't know what to conclude. PVE? huh... it's supposed to be good against Sansha/Blood rats but then again it's a shield tanker with T1 resists. Get the joke?

For me, it's probably heading right back to Jita. :(

edit: Give it a range bonus on top of a reduction to laser capacitor use or I don't care for it.Lol

It knows what you think.
Muad 'dib
Digital Ghosts
#46 - 2011-10-06 14:20:38 UTC
Phantasm needs an extra low really bad, id say more hp or better highs but actually with the extra low might be too much.

Nightmare is a heavy laser BS that shield tanks to able better gank , i dont see any problem with this ship.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Lugalzagezi666
#47 - 2011-10-06 14:38:21 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
Phantasm needs an extra low really bad, id say more hp or better highs but actually with the extra low might be too much.

Nightmare is a heavy laser BS that shield tanks to able better gank , i dont see any problem with this ship.


And yet when you fly bs sized ship its machariel 99% of the time.

I bet you would switch your cynabal for phantasm if it had one more low slot and 35k ehp. It cant be that bad when its only 50% slower right?
Lol
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#48 - 2011-10-06 15:04:42 UTC
Nightmare:

Having flown all sansha ships solo. I can tell you they are one of the best and most well rounded of the pirate faction ships. Phantasm has its issues though.

Nightmare does more damage or as much damage as a Vindicaters. In fact you need to put in alot of isk into a Vindicaters tank for it to be worth flying solo. Once you have tanked a Vindicater to the point it's worth flying, your damage is pretty under whelming. @ that point! You might as well think about flying a Navy Megathron.

So the nightmare does 1400 damage per second with faction damage mods. The tank can be tier 2 and still provide a better defense, without using faction modules. Thanks to it's 7 mid slots. With the help of low grade or high grade crystals (you get the picture). This is for close range mind you. It is no rattlesnake, which is the King when it comes to tanking. Having flown it. The more isk you put into it the more god like that thing tanks, while maintaining 1000dps. But! The Nightmare is still in the running when it comes to tank.


Since many have not seen or flown in a nano nightmare fleet. I'll give you some insight here. Provided you have the right bonuses, 2 Nanofibers and Low or High grade snakes. These ships can play a role in a gang of Machariels or just Nightmares. They put out a SERIOUS amount of damage @ range, with a pretty large buffer tank. Things melt quick! Kinda like nano'shield-apocs in Tempest gangs.

Phantasm:

I've only flown the phantasm solo, but they should work very well in fleets. The ship has always out preformed a Vigilant. Damage goes down hard and fast. Think my setup does 600dps close range. Destroys frigates pretty fast like any other nano-ship might. With a more well rounded setup it mirrors a Cynabal in terms of damage under 24km. Not as fast as a Cynabal, but anything going over 1300m/sec is nano to me and very viable, in my opinion. If you've flown damage setups for both the Vigilant and Phatasm. You will find the Phatasm does bring down ships ALOT faster.


Succubus:

Flown this ship enough to know it's got some Serious damage. When it comes to damage and maintain a very good tank. NOTHING COMES CLOSE. Dramiels are melted with ease. Engagements with Daredevils almost never reach armor. Mainly because this ship mirrors the Coercer in terms of damage. You can get 300dps out of it.


Thoughts/rant:

For close range battleship pvp in a faction ship. Nothing is better than a Rattlesnake. Price to preformance, the Navy Megathron wins close range. However, I think the NIghtmare is second when it comes to tanking of the pirate faction battleships, second in damage (but first in real pvp, with the Macharial). The nightmare can do the nanof@g thing (second only to the Fleet Tempest and Machariel).

Looking @ the cruisers. The Phantasm was always just a gimp Cynabal, with more damage close range. The Gila is the best close range pirate faction cruiser and the Cynabal is the best nano faction cruiser. The Phantasm falls between the 2.

The Succubus is a VERY good frigate. Better than a Daredevil, but worse than a Dramiel because it lacks the ability to disengage. However, it does the most damage of any pirate faction frigate in real pvp. Thing sh!ts damage! Ship has many setups to choose from, but I'm referencing a full damage setup.


-proxyyyy
Lugalzagezi666
#49 - 2011-10-06 15:10:25 UTC
m0cking bird wrote:
...


Holy jesus this guy is still completely clueless after all the years.

You still flying blaster hawks and such things?LolLol
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#50 - 2011-10-06 15:32:48 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
m0cking bird wrote:
...


Holy jesus this guy is still completely clueless after all the years.

You still flying blaster hawks and such things?LolLol



Your Mum likes my BLASTA HAWK...
Lugalzagezi666
#51 - 2011-10-06 15:37:55 UTC
My mum flies dramiels.
Muad 'dib
Digital Ghosts
#52 - 2011-10-06 16:47:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Muad 'dib
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Muad 'dib wrote:
Phantasm needs an extra low really bad, id say more hp or better highs but actually with the extra low might be too much.

Nightmare is a heavy laser BS that shield tanks to able better gank , i dont see any problem with this ship.


And yet when you fly bs sized ship its machariel 99% of the time.

I bet you would switch your cynabal for phantasm if it had one more low slot and 35k ehp. It cant be that bad when its only 50% slower right?
Lol


Well for pure pvp the faster ships going to be better while it does simlier dps etc.

The sansha ships might be good with a split role bonus of 5% range 5% tracking instead of 7.5 tracking, give them a little more than just "lasers'n'shields".

Id fly a phantasm if it was actually better than a nano zealot with a shield extender, but its not and thats very funny.

ALso the cruiser suffers the same thing as all cruiser shield tankers, if you cant fit a buffer it doesnt get used, as active shield setups on cruisers are 99% joke fodder.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
AureoLion
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2011-10-09 15:53:50 UTC
Comparing to angel, using the overpowered projectiles, is pretty useless.
Dramiel, Cynabal and Machariel are all three the top-tier, more or less. Cynabal a bit less, but still.
Comparing to the other pirate BSs, it's a lot more feasible. Except against the Bhaalgorn, perhaps.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2011-10-09 16:06:48 UTC
Ok, so you want us to ignore the blood raiders, and ignore the Angel Cartel ships.....

That leaves the Rattlesnake: a souped up Domi, for PVE, a role which the Nightmare is not intended for

and

The Vindicator, which out DPS's it, and has the utility of an über web and a larger drone bay.
Not to mention better agility and a 28% higher base speed.

Although I'm not much of a fan of the Vindi, the Frigs and cruisers from Serpentis really outshine the battleship.
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