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Do Sansha ships need a buff?

Author
Aamrr
#21 - 2011-10-04 12:07:53 UTC
If you're looking to buff the Nightmare in PvP (which might not be completely insane), I think a neut/nos range bonus would be both appropriate and flavorful.

Whether it's justified or not is an open question, though.
Lugalzagezi666
#22 - 2011-10-04 13:18:35 UTC
I say, lets keep sansha ships bricks, but proper laser shield bricks with adequate dps/ehp. I personally would unify caldari skill bonus with "special ability" bonus for all sansha ships - to new special ability bonus with increased damage - and give them +5% shield resist bonus from caldari skill.

Id take 1 utility high from succubus and give it 1 more low. Special ability would provide slightly MORE dps than it has now - around + 0,5-1 effective turret.

Id give phantasm 1 more low slot, bigger cargo, full flight of lights, adequate pg boost and pre-dominion ehp /not counting that resist bonus/. Special ability bonus would provide MORE dps - somewhere around +2 effective guns.

Wouldnt change much about nm except shield resist bonus, maybe slightly bigger cargohold and 1 more utility high with adequate pg boost. Special ability bonus would provide SAME dps as now.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#23 - 2011-10-04 13:54:06 UTC
Skippermonkey wrote:
people here complaining the the Nightmare doesnt have a 'stand out attribute' that differs it from a normal Battleship, what would you change or add to the ship to make it 'better'?

Boost speed and agility by, say, 15-20%. Atm it is clumsy as a bear. I'm a firm believer that any faction/pirate battleship should be better in terms of speed/agility compared to its regular counterpart. Vindicator comes to mind in this regard - it gets awesome agility for no apparent reason.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
#24 - 2011-10-04 14:05:02 UTC
*cuddles her nightmare close to her chest*

lurves my mare.. she is so cute ^^

Nightmare is a funny ship, if you get into it with low to .. okish skills, you will go "huh this isnt all that good" then you sell it.. train up your skills and decide to try again and then you have to go change panties as it is just so friggin awesome.

phantasm... succy... yeah.. eh.. they could probably do with a bit of a boost, pretty hard to fit properly and not all that exciting compared to the other pirate ships.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2011-10-04 14:20:47 UTC
Nightmare uses 4 guns instead of 8, means you have 3 utility slots, instead of 1 on the Machariel. For PVE, it's also a pro, less ammo consumption. Try using faction ammo on a PVE Mach, you'll sink your bank account in a few missions.

You also have 7 medslots. Which means, it owns when it comes to shield tanking, even though the Machariel have more base shield HP. Tell me what kind of PVP ship have 7 medslots. The Rattlesnake, ok. The Scorpion ? Yep, he have 8, but it's not really a combat ship like the Nightmare. The Widow ? Who cares about this one except for his look. Anything else ? Rokh, Maelstrom, Raven, they all have 6 medslots. In my humble opinion, the Nightmare is one of the best active shieldtanker PVP ship around, along with the Maelstrom. But, it can actually fit stuff in utility slots, the Maelstrom can't.

5 lowslots, so it's still decent for Heatsinks, DC and TEs.

Droneday isn't ├╝bergreat, but hey, 75m3 is a set of meddrones, and a set of lights, which is usually what you have on a Machariel anyway (except that you have an additionnal meddrones stack, in case you loose the first one).

But I agree, it's slow as ****.
Lugalzagezi666
#26 - 2011-10-04 15:03:18 UTC
- nightmare does not have 3 utility slots
- using faction ammo with mach in l4s actually increases your isk/h, proved many times already on forums
- nightmare in fact cant tank better than maelstrom or rokh, because of their boost/resist bonus
- it tanks worse than rattler and navy scorp - not even counting in nightmares cap warfare vulnerability
- btw without crystals it actually doesnt tank much better than hyperion or dominix - both of them can fit holy trinity and 2 cap boosters

- it can fit stuff into its 2 utility slots - but if it doesnt fit large noses, it caps out just by shooting and running hardeners
- if you want to run heavy neut, gl with cap, if you want to fit mwd... Big smile
- i personally cant imagine how one could fly pvp nightmare without 2x t2 safeguards and at least low tier officer cap booster

Being superfast and able to control range is even bigger advantage. Number of flown machs and nightmares speak by themselves.

Seriously, nightmare is really unimpressive for pvp. Its one of the best pve ships vs em/th weak npcs, thats true... but what can nightmare do to sanshas/bloods, mach can do almost as well. And as bonus it can kill angels/guristas much faster.

Kale Eledar
Venerated Industries
#27 - 2011-10-04 16:22:38 UTC
The Vindicator probably gets a bonus to agility because getting into blaster range quickly is basically the only way it'll be able to do the ludicrous close range damage it used to be famous for. It's still not as good as it used to be.
As for Sansha ships, keep the 100% bonus to laser damage in mind: you see those bonuses on Marauders, and this is a much smaller ship. The Nightmare seems to bulldoze through level 4s, but it suffers cap problems. I'd be interested to see the Nightmare as a PvP capable ship, but I feel the same - SHOULD it be is another question.

First come smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire.

Alexandria Aesirial
Super Villains
Pandemic Horde
#28 - 2011-10-04 17:10:30 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
- nightmare does not have 3 utility slots
- using faction ammo with mach in l4s actually increases your isk/h, proved many times already on forums
- nightmare in fact cant tank better than maelstrom or rokh, because of their boost/resist bonus
- it tanks worse than rattler and navy scorp - not even counting in nightmares cap warfare vulnerability
- btw without crystals it actually doesnt tank much better than hyperion or dominix - both of them can fit holy trinity and 2 cap boosters

- it can fit stuff into its 2 utility slots - but if it doesnt fit large noses, it caps out just by shooting and running hardeners
- if you want to run heavy neut, gl with cap, if you want to fit mwd... Big smile
- i personally cant imagine how one could fly pvp nightmare without 2x t2 safeguards and at least low tier officer cap booster

Being superfast and able to control range is even bigger advantage. Number of flown machs and nightmares speak by themselves.

Seriously, nightmare is really unimpressive for pvp. Its one of the best pve ships vs em/th weak npcs, thats true... but what can nightmare do to sanshas/bloods, mach can do almost as well. And as bonus it can kill angels/guristas much faster.


Active nightmare is badass and doesn't have cpu problems like the maelstrom does.

It's only blobbing when you lose, otherwise it's good fleet comp.

Andrea Griffin
#29 - 2011-10-04 17:17:17 UTC
Succubus is a sad, sad little ship. It really needs help. Built-in shield resists, or a much larger capacitor, a 5th mid, a 3rd low, neut/nos range bonus, something. It needs something. It just doesn't have the tank, gank, speed, or ewar capability to make it a good PvP frigate. It's so AWESOME looking, it's a true shame that it performs like utter poo.
Lugalzagezi666
#30 - 2011-10-04 18:27:15 UTC
Alexandria Aesirial wrote:
Active nightmare is badass and doesn't have cpu problems like the maelstrom does.


Active nightmare has slightly worse tank, slightly better damage and worse capacitor even with 2 large noses running. For 800 mil isk more.
Badass ship. Roll
DHB WildCat
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#31 - 2011-10-04 20:28:09 UTC
I may know a thing or two about pirate ships.

The best pirate battleship for pvp is the nightmare. No question here. The best hands down!

Rattlesnake would be the king of pve.

Sansha Ships are awesome. Use their bonuses intelligently. The normal cookie cutter setups do not work with them, but the right setup means that ANY sansha ship will own any other ship in the game! Sansha needs no buff compared to the other ships. But by all means buff them for me. Then I can bust 50 man gate camps instead of only busting 30 man gate camps.
DarkAegix
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2011-10-04 23:10:44 UTC
Are Sansha underpowered...or Angel overpowered?
I'd say the latter.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2011-10-05 06:41:57 UTC
At least we agree on the Succubus and the Phantasm.

Angel ships OPd? perhaps
Nightmare bonuses equal 10 unbonused large laser turrets
Mach bonuses equal 11.67 large unbonused projectile turrets.

Falloff doesn't change with ammo, the mach has about the same optimal+1 falloff range as a pulse laser has optimal with radio crystals. The difference is the mach uses high damage ammo (EMP/Phased plasma/ Fusion), whereas the NM uses a crystal that starts doing about 40% of the high damage crystal - so what the Mach loses to fall off, the NM gas already lost from the start.

Oh, and at lvl 5, the NM only has 7% better tracking.
And of course, its cap cant handle firing the guns, its slower, less agile, larger sig radius, smaller drone bay.


The nightmare isn't a bad ship, it just fails to wow me. I don't think going to lvl 5 skills from lvl 4 will change that.
It will still have the same DPS as an Abaddon.

Lets look at its tracking bonus... do you really need it farther than 30km out?
Look at the Bhaal - same double large laser bonus, and it webs 28-30 km out (because you should be using a faction web on a ship that expensive - so assume true sansha or fed navy web)
It slows its target to .4 or .45 its former speed, so the target transversal is slowed likewise.
After the target is slowed, the effect is the same as if the ship had a +120% to 150% tracking bonus - and it makes it easier for the rest of the fleet to hit (if there is a fleet) as well.
The Bhaals' web bonus is clearly better than the NM's tracking bonus.

Personally, I'm in favor of giving the NM an 8th mid - this can be used to improve its somewhat lackluster (its supposed to be shiny- ie losts of luster : ) tank. Or the mid could be a cap recharger, to improve its lackluster capacitor, or an afterburner to help with the lack of speed.

Of course I wouldn't complain if its base speed or shields or cap recharge was increased. It would also help if it could field at least 5 heavy drones, or if its sig radius was decreased, or its agility increased.

It just needs... something, because I don't see a role it performs that some other faction BS doesn't perform better.
Lugalzagezi666
#34 - 2011-10-05 08:12:34 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
...

Its your opinion.

My opinion :
The best pirate battleship for pvp is machariel. No question here. The best hands down.
Rattlesnake is good as passive tanking pve ship. Its not even close to "king of pve."

Guess which one is closer to reality. Lol

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#35 - 2011-10-05 12:03:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
nvm

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#36 - 2011-10-05 15:00:26 UTC
the nightmare fit right is deadly... not much can take it on... but then again spend 3 billion on mods and you should be near "concord"... but tbh sansha could use a boost... sub the tracking bonus for an optimal range... and presto... best faction out there...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

tsukubasteve
Doomheim
#37 - 2011-10-05 15:09:30 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
So, i've been comparing the Sansha ships to other pirate faction BS's, in particular Angel Cartel and Serpentis.
The Sansha ships seem inferior.

Consider the nightmare vs the mach:

Very similar damage to the mach
No damage type selection for the nightmare (bad for PvE)
The mach has much better range/damage projection
Very similar tank (base shield Hp both in the 9,000's, mach has a higher passive regen and smaller sig radius)
The nightmare is much slower and has a much larger sig radius
The nightmare has a 25% smaller drone bacy
The Nightmare has only marginally better tracking when the higher base tracking of autocannons is considered.
The nightmare's cap can barely take firing the guns

The Phantasm and Succubus stack up along similar lines - they just aren't that good compared to other pirate faction ships.

The nightmare is no good for PvP given its poor cap, speed, and cost
Its not much good for PvE given its lack of damage selection

The only thing it seems good for is running incursions, where it is merely the equal of a mach.

I'm thinking Sansha ships need an improved capacitor, or higher speed and lower sig, or expanded drone bay, or extra mid/low slot (Give the nightmare the mid+ low slot layout of a rattler?.

Because at the moment... I don't really see a point to flying the Nightmare anymore.
The mach can do everything the nightmare can do, and so much more.




Lay off the crack-o's in the morning.

Didn't we just re-do all the pirate battleships a while back? I seem to remember tons of Mass testing on SISI where dev's repeatedly doomsday'd us all.

Either way, the nightmare is OP, perhaps you don't understand how to fit a ship? EFT warriors often have trouble with their "OMFGBBQSauce this fit is the best!!111!!" in real gameplay, especially when in PvP.

Also, what does cap regen matter when you're running a cap booster. (You do use that in PvP right? or did we all start using passive regen and no one told me?)
tsukubasteve
Doomheim
#38 - 2011-10-05 15:14:01 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
When I'm looking at pirate batteships to boost, the Nightmare isn't exactly the one that comes to mind...

Rattlesnake, anyone? Seriously, why does anyone fly that crap?



PvE,

Few faction mods and t2 rigs? 2200 dps omni tank passive? just drop your ogres after you agro everything and walk away to have a coffee.
Lugalzagezi666
#39 - 2011-10-05 15:21:13 UTC
tsukubasteve wrote:
...


You seem like you have absolutely no idea what are you talking about. Sad.
tsukubasteve
Doomheim
#40 - 2011-10-05 15:33:19 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
tsukubasteve wrote:
...


You seem like you have absolutely no idea what are you talking about. Sad.



It's sad that we have to do this.

All these battleships were changed around, after extensive testing on sisi. If anyone wanted their input into it, they should have been there offering suggestions like those who did.

I'm fine with the way things turned out. The Mach is great in pve or pvp, the nightmare can still hit from massive range with beams and drop most stuff before it gets close. The rattlesnake is still a black hole that simply absorbs damage (almost none escapes out of it though). I just fail to see the reason to buff/nerf any of these ships, and more than they already have. If your flying something and it doesn't work well in the role you're using it for, then perhaps your flying the wrong ship. Try another one?

Personally, if I was going to PvP a faction battleship, I'd use navy/fleet issue ships. They're half the price, and still put out impressive dps. Not like anyone ever pvp's solo any more anyways, so bring your buddies and your logi alts and go pillage.
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