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Dev Blog: Back to the balancing future!

First post First post
Author
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#941 - 2012-11-25 10:54:30 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
I (now) get what he means.

You just set the skill levels. You don't set the SP level higher. So you still have all the BCs at 5, but there's a disparity between how many skillpoints you have, and how many you /should/ have, if you add everything up.

Not sure it's a good idea, as it makes the dba in me cringe. But I guess it might work.


So, I would have a rank 6 skill at level 5 with only 384000 SP?

I can see what you guys want. Big smile

Every time you lose T3 you lose SP. This would allow you to keep subsystem skills at level 5.

So, again: no thanks.
I'm Down
Perkone
Caldari State
#942 - 2012-11-25 23:59:01 UTC  |  Edited by: I'm Down
Skill tree changes:

Basically, they've screwed themselves in the ass if they try to implement this... So many negative things can and will happen, and most of them are the one's we have not thought of yet.

So far:

hurts new players
Clone upgrades for the added skill points in terms of cost
skill point loss if the clones aren't upgraded properly by the players after patch
skill disciplines being affected

no real reason it's even needed.


Here's a better thought. How about you make ships actually have roles at the different levels where bigger is simply not almost always better.

How about you pour time into tracking mechanics, proper ship values for classes, and make roles for smaller ships other than disposable tackle?

How about a system where Webs weren't the be all answer of fighting smaller ships in fleet combat. How about a system where capitals were nearly unkillable in fleets and carriers/supers didn't get RR power?

But no no, you just keep wasting time on skill trees that have little to no impact on the game in positive manner... that really makes players pay you salaries.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#943 - 2012-11-26 04:17:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
I'm Down wrote:
But no no, you just keep wasting time on skill trees that have little to no impact on the game in positive manner... that really makes players pay you salaries.


Training for command ships and interdictors gets faster (a lot faster for command ships).
I'm Down
Perkone
Caldari State
#944 - 2012-11-26 09:49:47 UTC  |  Edited by: I'm Down
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
I'm Down wrote:
But no no, you just keep wasting time on skill trees that have little to no impact on the game in positive manner... that really makes players pay you salaries.


Training for command ships and interdictors gets faster (a lot faster for command ships).



2 minimal effects they could fix in a variety of safer, more effective, less timely ways.

And you're only assuming HAS skill will be removed from commands.. they've not said this yet.
Wodanaz
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#945 - 2012-11-27 06:56:57 UTC
May i suggest that the nerf to heavy missiles is a to heavy of a nerf, A reduction to damage and range to the point which makes missile boats less effective and with the new AI and possible drake changes many people will be reluctant to use caldari for pve and pvp stop touching things that don't need heavy re balancing, The same thing goes with messing with the hurricane. Why cant you just look at minor re balances that improve the effectivity of other ships instead of creating a whole new range of problems with other ships and peoples play styles.....

Suggestions

- Minor heavy missile nerfs
- Release more drone functions and a better ui With the new ai changes so drone boats are not a ineffective choice in pve.
- Hurricanes are a viable choice in pvp nerfing it will just make it less effective and people will choose not to use it.

Nerf the right things ccp, Stop the big nerfing of things that only need small changes and things that dont need any changes at all.
Maru Sha
The Department of Justice
#946 - 2012-11-27 14:48:16 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

You'll get exactly the same level of bonus to your ships after the skill change as you did before it, and since you only need the cruiser skills to 3 to fly those BCs and getting cruiser higher doesn't give bonuses to the BCs, any cruiser skill levels beyond 3 don't matter.



Ok, here are some, hopefully, clever questions:

Question #0 - What if you started EVE and did not learn any racial ship skill, just the battlecruiser skill on level X? So you don't have the primary skill required to actually fly a battlecruiser, but you already trained the skill "battlecruisers". I know it is a hypothetical question, but it nicely summarizes the next three questions.

Question #1 - What if you have the battlecruisers skill on let's say V and some random racial skills for frigates but no cruiser skills?

Question #2 - What if you have the battlecruisers skill on lets say IV and some random racial skills for cruisers but all below level III?

Question #3 - What if we take question #1 and #2 and say that the racial skills are all equal or have different values, but still below the level required to actually fly a real battlecruiser?


I hope you see my point and the limitation to your approach. You say you want to hand out free SPs to people so they can continue to fly all the battlecruisers with the same bonus as before. I say you forget about those that have the battlecruiser skills but can't fly battlecruisers (same goes with destroyers of course). I say use the principle of unallocated skill points and let people train for it if they want to continue using battlecruisers (command ships) and destroyers of all 4 races. I say don't hand out millions of free SPs to those that already have battlecruisers on V and can easily learn all 4 racial cruisers skills in no time, while leaving out those who a) are new to the game, have limited SPs and can't get there in time, b) are away from EVE and can't adjust their training queues or c) are just not aware of the coming changes and will be like w t f the day the patch will be applied.
II don't see what real harm it would do if you use unallocated SPs, but I see several question and exclamation marks if you continue like you proposed.
Ruhige Schmerz
Perkone
Caldari State
#947 - 2012-11-27 18:32:53 UTC
Is there a particular reason that the Drake is listed as having a shield tanking "problem" while the myrm is stated to be "mainly fine"?

I know most people *don't*, but you *can* fit a myrm nearly identically to a drake, with an insane shield recharge tank -- with all the drawbacks such a fit brings. The root of the drakes problem isn't the shield recharge, it's the cap recharge. The only real difference between the myrm and drake when recharge tanking is that the drake can run its tank a lot longer.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#948 - 2012-11-27 18:57:35 UTC
Ruhige Schmerz wrote:
Is there a particular reason that the Drake is listed as having a shield tanking "problem" while the myrm is stated to be "mainly fine"?

I know most people *don't*, but you *can* fit a myrm nearly identically to a drake, with an insane shield recharge tank -- with all the drawbacks such a fit brings. The root of the drakes problem isn't the shield recharge, it's the cap recharge. The only real difference between the myrm and drake when recharge tanking is that the drake can run its tank a lot longer.



But you /don't/ get the drake's shield resist bonuses with that.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Alayna Le'line
#949 - 2012-11-30 09:48:51 UTC
Roime wrote:
Quote:
Dominix: still remains a popular ship. It is fairly good, except for the drone mechanics themselves, which are terribly outdated. While we are not certain when this can be tackled, it definitely has high priority on our to-do list.


Very nice to hear :) Domi is more than fairly good, it is amazing. From highest dps (ok Vindi still beats it) brawler to ECM-immune pos basher to PVE, it Dominates. It only needs a visual facelift!


Not sure why all the hate for the Dominix' looks, sure it's not the sexiest ship in EVE, but it's not exactly the ugliest one either. Personally I've grown rather fond of my potato.
PavlikX
Rezeda Core
Rezeda Regnum
#950 - 2012-12-02 10:47:24 UTC
Great, glad to read this, especially about t2 BC, aka Comand ships.
Dear developers, can we hope that those changes (BC, BS, CS rebalancing) will be introduced in single one expansion next summer?
Aramatheia
Tiffany and Co.
#951 - 2012-12-02 13:44:24 UTC
Quote:
Command and Tech3 ships providing that much of an advantage should commit to an engagement instead of being safely parked inside a POS bubble.


I reckon the fix to that is to block POS shields from allowing all effects in or out.

Theres no reason why a pvp fleet in low/null wouldnt have a scanning ship to find assets hidden off grid, such as another enemy fleet or thier boosters

All this means now is that the defending fleet is the only fleet that has effectively off grid boosts as they still have a booster inside thier pos bubble while the fleet fights, the attacking fleet has no boosts or a sponge with links that will be called primary instantly upon sight

not to mention this is also a nerf of sorts for incursion fleets they lose a dps/logi slot, or lose fleet boosts.

All to counter something that effectively will not change
Hong Hu
Roving Guns Inc.
Pandemic Legion
#952 - 2012-12-02 16:09:52 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
As for the gang link nerf discussion. It's extremely clear that the addition of the 5% bonused T3s combined with the T2 gang link modules created a perfect storm with gang boosts. These have become far too powerful and it has become almost impossible to compete without a booster alt. We're not switching command ship and T3 bonuses straight up because 5% links are overpowered, so everyone should probably start getting used to that idea.


Bless you.

Will there be any move towards making OOC boosters subject to aggression flags like OOC logi?

Warfare mindlinks currently only effect one set of bonuses. Is there any discussion of rationalizing mindlinks to match the racial ships? For example, the Skirmish Warfare Mindlink becomes the Minmatar Warfare Mindlink and specifically boosts Claymore and Sleipnir. This would put a premium on the person that invests the time to be able to use mindlinks, Command Ships and their new paired Warfare Links.

Regards,

Hong Hu
Open Graves
Rapid Withdrawal
Pen Is Out
#953 - 2012-12-03 17:26:11 UTC
I know I'm kinda late to this coversation as this is going on page 48 or so. But I would like to point something out.

Command ships for each race are the T2 variants of one battlecruiser. The tier 1 and tier 2 BCs are going to be different weapon systems, shouldn't it follow that the Command ship with that weapon type be the T2 varaint of the appropriate BC?

So, if the Myrm is going to be the Drone battlecruiser, then the drone CS should be the Eos and if the Brutix is going to be the Laser boat then the Astarte should be the T2 of that hull.

If this has been brought up before I apologize, I only made ith through the first 7 or so pages of this thread so far.
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#954 - 2012-12-03 20:19:17 UTC
josie haulet wrote:
i read and heard that the claymore is being turned into a missile boat, why? ...i trained caldari command ships up to use missiles...and the claymore in its place with 5 t2 425 ac and 3 ham is perfect for up close use...
so your nerfing this the same way you did the macherial ..cant you just leave the top slots open so we can decide which damn weapons we put in.....in changing the claymore to missiles only it will be pointless....just fly a caldari ship at that point...which why i trained caldari so i could use caldari command ships if needed

for minmatar ships have always been a mix of all types...now your trying to specify which ships do what.. the Sleipnir has always been a long range slow gun boat. the claymore has always been the closer range ac boat..with a few missiles as added extra...and im sure in the process of removing turrents from the claymore it will lose a weapon top slot like the macherial, so 7 missile launchers = a night hawk...don't we have one of those already.

i never understand why you just don't let us decide which weapons mods we put on a ship...

Limiting the players fitting options is easier. The more felxibility we are given, the harder it is to figure out balance for a huge number of possible loadouts. My personal voite would be a variation on rig slots, except for weapon hard points. You decide what weapons you want, and install the hard points for them, the same way you would for rigs.

And maybe I really don't understand the Role-based versus Tier-based concept. All these change seem like it makes the linear progression even more entrenched. Destroyers and BCs used to be side branches. Now they will be in the racial linear progression. Isn't that MORE tiers and less role based ? And by limiting the weapon types available coupled with racial bonuses, again, you are forced into a linear racial progression to get to the role you want . But it's still MORE tiers with no sideways offshoots with distinct roles....
WheatGrass
#955 - 2012-12-04 16:25:55 UTC  |  Edited by: WheatGrass
Where are the racial destroyer and racial battle-cruiser skill books?

I utilized an attribute reallocation bonus on more than one character to get necessary skills trained up in time for the Retribution deployment. I've been training spaceship command skills for weeks in anticipation of this. Yet, now that Retribution has been deployed, the books seem nowhere to be found.

Where are the books which were described in the November 6 2012 dev blog by CCP Ytterbium?


What should players expect, as far as a time-line, regarding appearance of these books in-game?

Thank you.
Viktor Rasmussen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#956 - 2012-12-05 08:44:48 UTC
It seems they've forgotten to implement the new skills ;-)

I find it kinda hard to get the informations about the new patch - especially the things they finally didn't implement because of problems or other things.
I think they postponed these racial skills for something - but why? I can't find informations about this without spending hours of forums reading...
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#957 - 2012-12-05 09:49:42 UTC
WheatGrass wrote:
Where are the racial destroyer and racial battle-cruiser skill books?

I utilized an attribute reallocation bonus on more than one character to get necessary skills trained up in time for the Retribution deployment. I've been training spaceship command skills for weeks in anticipation of this. Yet, now that Retribution has been deployed, the books seem nowhere to be found.

Where are the books which were described in the November 6 2012 dev blog by CCP Ytterbium?


What should players expect, as far as a time-line, regarding appearance of these books in-game?

Thank you.


Viktor Rasmussen wrote:
It seems they've forgotten to implement the new skills ;-)

I find it kinda hard to get the informations about the new patch - especially the things they finally didn't implement because of problems or other things.
I think they postponed these racial skills for something - but why? I can't find informations about this without spending hours of forums reading...


Well you both obviously read the thread where CCP suggested that you train the skills "sooner rather than later" (their words) but you somehow missed the MULTIPLE times they said that these changes would not come with retribution but soon after


I underlined it this time so neither of you would miss it, if I were a betting man, I'd wager that around February you'll see the changes you're looking for.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Dreadful Bride
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#958 - 2012-12-05 22:31:14 UTC
For a solution to Off Grid Boosting I thought maybe a gang module that blocks incoming signals to the grid that way if a gang is worried about off grid boosters they can fit the module to one of their BCs. This allows the carebears and miners to have boosted fleets while PvP players can choose to limit the enemys fleet. Perhaps have the module have the same stats as as a gang link and be limited to the same ships it can be fitted on.

The difficult bit i can see is being able to set the grid for local or off grid boosts it gets even more difficult if there is a T2 version that prevents all boosting local and remote to the grid.
Garia666
CyberShield Inc
HYDRA RELOADED
#959 - 2012-12-09 15:18:07 UTC
why not just remove all the races all together.. you clearly wont need them with every race being or getting the same..
Griffin Omanid
Knights of the Zodiac
#960 - 2012-12-10 15:58:09 UTC
I really like the ideas with the Command Ships, and you at least get one sub system of the T3 balanced. You get less bonus then a Command Ship but you can in small gangs with only one ship boost only the most usefull six links out of nine possibles.
But maybe aou should chnage the name to Commando Ships, because they will be, if the balancing went well, strong BC stronger then HAC´s, which are also nearly as expensive as Tier-3-BS with nearly as good tank but faster and armed with medium guns. So more or less nice elite ships (I don´t think that thes bling-bling-"I-am-a-pimp-with-no-balls"-T3s deserve to be called elite because they are too expensive).

You also wrote that the rokh is fine as it is, well I think it should get a little bit more cap , so that it could last longer then 15 min while permant firing (T2-guns) and with active Hardeners.

The debate with the racial destroyer and BC skills, ok i think the most player had already enough time to train at least destroyer on 5 all frigs and cruiser up to 4 and the BC on something around 3-4. If not, theres is still enough time until next year. the only ones I would pity are new players or new acoounts in general. Because i think also the skill rank will stay the same it is not really fair for them, but i alos would like to know how long it will take to train Command Ships or Interceptors after the old and the new system. For interceptors I think only the Racial Frig level 5 will be deleted, but for CS?