Player Features and Ideas Discussion

As stated by CCP Fozzie in the Retribution Point Release BC thread, *something* will happen to (active ?) armor tanking.

But the problem discussed here is more about local rep vs remote rep. Simply having active tank bonuses apply to RR would fix the imbalance.

imho the biggest problem for us, interested in this tanking form balance, is that there's no proper information.
So how can someone admit those lol 7.5% bonus are ok without even knowing what's going to happen?

I already know what is going to happen, as many others around already know what is going to happen because we're used to.
We'll see those ships balanced around bonus totally useless with actual tanking mechanics/mods, and given another lol'ish balance aka Reactive Armor Hardener and in the end, we'll still be fitting shield rigs and mods.

We'll still be reading "omgfckpwn triple/dble rep Myrmidon/Hyperion owns all", at the gate, at the station...yey...

are you calling cyclone and myrmidon bad?how dare you sir,i challange you to a duel

i like the option to make RR tanking affected by the armor bonus...

i dont mind that there is less base ehp.

gal ships will generally have more speed and better agility then ammar ships so this should balance them out...

infact a good way to increase balance is to reduce the sig radius of active tanked ships as this would make up for any ehp deficit.

Sorry, that is not how it works. Ship bonuses are not stacking penalized with other resistance mods, of any sort.

Well, if you have 99% resistance, and are shot at by a gun dealing 200 damage, you take 2 points of damage.
If you have 99,5% resistance, and are shot at by a gun dealing 200 damage, you take 1 point of damage.

You basically halve the amount of damage taken. I don't see this as a waste of a module.

I agree with the OP about the better versatility of resist bonuses, but there is one fact about rep bonus which is sort of hidden bby EFT EHP-calculations and those applied to reps:

You don't repair hp/s in game. It's an abstraction.

Using Proph and Myrm with T2 Med Repper for this example, now what happens in reality is this:

Prophecy takes less incoming damage due to higher resists. It's reppers rep as much as on say, Ferox. Which in case of medium reppers is not a lot, infact it's nothing, 320 HP every 9 seconds (make it shorter, you want to, reps happen at the end of the cycle ffs!). The difference is 25% from whatever is between base resists and 100%. (for example BC V raises base armor EM resist from 50% to 62.5%).

Myrmidon takes more damage, all other things being equal... but it's reppers rep 1.375 times more raw hitpoints per cycle. 440 HP per cycle to be exact. Cycle time stays the same, 9 seconds.

Now the kicker is the fact that neither DPS exists on Tranquility. Guns shoot in volleys every X seconds, so what you get is for example 4500 points (-your resists) of damage every 4.5 seconds, which simulates a Blastos in this example. Scary, I know. It does hurt. We'll simplify this to pure Kinetic dmg because ~too many maths~.

Now let's start piling those MAR IIs and resist modules on our ships, and we'll find out why there is a legend called Triple Rep Myrm, but nobody ever flies a triple rep Proph because in active tanking the resist bonus is not as good as rep bonus when actually cycling the modules, even tho it looks equal in EFT.

Myrm, 3xMAR II: 1320 per cycle
Prop, 3xMAR II: 960 per cycle

Difference is more than one MAR II on raw HP level, 360 HP.

I addition to three reppers, we slap a DCU II and two EANM IIs on both ships, and assume all V skills.

Proph has 71.9% against Kinetic. so 1265 points of damage are reduced from our Prophs armor every 4.5 seconds.
Myrm has 67.6%, against Kinetic, so 1458 points of damage are reduced from our Myrms armor every 4.5 seconds.

Difference in received damage is only 193 HP.

Meaning that the Myrm is 167 HP ahead because it can rep more in one go - in theory, in practice getting any benefits this means that you need to time your reps right, but due to to the nature of EVE's hit formula and the human element, your cycles and incoming volleys are never synced like they are in EFT calculations, resulting in a situation where the ability to repair a larger chunk of received damage is superior to receiving less damage. If the volleys and reps are in perfect sync, there is very little difference between resist and rep bonus, like EFT says.

But the practical TQ difference is further highlighted by Exile (%-bonus to rep amount) and gang links (cycle time reduction) to an extent where Myrmidon pulls ahead also in the theoretical EFT hp/s calculation.

This is also why flying a multirepper tank highlights piloting skill, is insanely fun and can lead to priceless sensations of triumph.

Only question remains if the actual repping bonus % per level is enough, I say no, as in our example where both ships woudl have exploded rather promptly :D

10% per level would highlight the difference and promote the Art of Active Tanking, which I think is good for the game by virtue of enabling thrilling engagements for both parties.

(sorry for terrible sentences, no time to make this a blog post)

It would but .. if the bonus was 10% the ships with said bonus would be unbeatable in solo/duo engagements .. the only counter to them would be precisely timed neuts, *yawn* kiting or MOAR! dudes. If the bonus was to be increased then you'd have to tweak their capacitors to balance it out somewhat (read: mandatory injector).

My eyes almost literally popped out when I saw the pull-back on what I assume was a heated dual-rep Incursus and would hate to see that on ships with far less predators.

True, but what if/when MAR's and LAR's are brought up to par with SAR's and those 600dps tanked comes from one permanent + one intermittent cycled repper?

Until we have a better idea of what is planned for armour tanking, theorizing about and asking for larger bonuses is rather futile. Hell, for all we know the amount bonus could benefit from becoming a cap bonus when all is said and done

Fozie seems quite decided on overheat mechanics for active armor tanking.

Can't see anything good on this but whatever, since I can shield/armor tank I shouldn't really care how bad it will be sorted.