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[Ship balancing] Why active tank bonuses are plain worse than resist bonuses

Author
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#41 - 2012-11-07 19:24:20 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
I'm aware of that. It doesn't mean that you should hand out resist bonuses to ships that previously had active tanking bonuses.

By the way, the best buffer tanks are mediocre at best at active tanking in practice even if in theory the 5% resist bonus is just as good as a 7.5% rep amount bonus. Why? Because they're cap hungry laser ships.


They have better capacitors to deal with that part.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2012-11-07 19:35:46 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
There are four types of bonuses I can think of:

Bonus to locally generated HP (such as on the Myrmidon): Helps with Local Tanking only.
Bonus to HP pool (such as on the Auguror): Helps with Buffer Tanking only.
Bonus to remotely generated HP (no ship has this ATM): Helps with Remote Tanking only.
Bonus to HP to EHP rate (AKA resists): Helps with all tanking types.

Does this make it any clearer?
Yeah I get it. But I don't think giving all tanking ships one kind of tank skill bonus will solve anything. If that bonus is too powerful, it needs to be nerfed or the others buffed. They don't need to be eliminated.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#43 - 2012-11-07 19:39:35 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Iris Bravemount wrote:
There are four types of bonuses I can think of:

Bonus to locally generated HP (such as on the Myrmidon): Helps with Local Tanking only.
Bonus to HP pool (such as on the Auguror): Helps with Buffer Tanking only.
Bonus to remotely generated HP (no ship has this ATM): Helps with Remote Tanking only.
Bonus to HP to EHP rate (AKA resists): Helps with all tanking types.

Does this make it any clearer?
Yeah I get it. But I don't think giving all tanking ships one kind of tank skill bonus will solve anything. If that bonus is too powerful, it needs to be nerfed or the others buffed. They don't need to be eliminated.


Well how about giving the current "resist ships" bonuses to HP pool and received HP instead and adding a bonus to received HP to current "active" ships?

This way, the imbalance would be gone, because both could be efficiently remote repped in fleets and we would still have two different types of tanks.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#44 - 2012-11-07 20:27:35 UTC
Just because it is different and/or not as good, doesn't mean its a problem.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#45 - 2012-11-07 20:30:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Iris Bravemount
Paikis wrote:
Just because it is different and/or not as good, doesn't mean its a problem.


I have no problem with different, but a big problem with not as good.

Especially when it's not as good to the point of not being viable.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#46 - 2012-11-07 20:32:43 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Just because it is different and/or not as good, doesn't mean its a problem.


I have no problem with different, but a big problem with not as good.

Especially when it's not as good to the point of not being viable.


I've told you a million times not to exaggerate.

Iris Bravemount wrote:
I have ... a big problem


Yes you do. Stop thinking that your blob warfare is the only kind of PvP in EVE and perhaps you'll see where active tanking shines.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#47 - 2012-11-07 20:34:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Iris Bravemount
Paikis wrote:
Yes you do. Stop thinking that your blob warfare is the only kind of PvP in EVE and perhaps you'll see where active tanking shines.


*cough*... I'm in FW... *cough*

And I'm not saying active tanking sucks. I'm saying the bonus to active tanking sucks, because the bonus to resists does the same and more;

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#48 - 2012-11-07 20:53:30 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
*cough*... I'm in FW... *cough*

And I'm not saying active tanking sucks. I'm saying the bonus to active tanking sucks, because the bonus to resists does the same and more;


Resists are stacking penalised. Repair modules are not.

Ever been in a wormhole with the wolf-rayet effect? What about a fleet with a bonused, mind-linked armor booster? All of this stuff stacks and is stacking penalised so that after 3 of them, the effect of a resist bonus is very minimal. A repair bonus however is always good, providing you get time to run your repper for a few cycles, and have the capacitor required for it.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#49 - 2012-11-07 20:56:43 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Iris Bravemount wrote:
*cough*... I'm in FW... *cough*

And I'm not saying active tanking sucks. I'm saying the bonus to active tanking sucks, because the bonus to resists does the same and more;


Resists are stacking penalised. Repair modules are not.

Ever been in a wormhole with the wolf-rayet effect? What about a fleet with a bonused, mind-linked armor booster? All of this stuff stacks and is stacking penalised so that after 3 of them, the effect of a resist bonus is very minimal. A repair bonus however is always good, providing you get time to run your repper for a few cycles, and have the capacitor required for it.

Ship bonuses don't receive stacking penalties. That base 25% is increasing EHP and rep amount by 25%. It is a universally damn good bonus.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#50 - 2012-11-07 21:26:02 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:

Ship bonuses don't receive stacking penalties. That base 25% is increasing EHP and rep amount by 25%. It is a universally damn good bonus.


I didn't say it was a bad bonus. I was under the impression that it was stacking penalised though. From what I knew, everything that is a % effect is penalised, with the Damage Control and the new adaptive plating being a second category that are stacking penalised with each other but not with everything else. Google tells me that ship bonuses are exempt. Ah well, live and learn.

I still don't see this as a problem, merely a difference. 5% rate of fire is inherently better than 5% damage, yet no one complains about this difference. I also think you're looking at these bonuses in complete isolation, when they are only part of the whole.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#51 - 2012-11-07 21:38:05 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:

Ship bonuses don't receive stacking penalties. That base 25% is increasing EHP and rep amount by 25%. It is a universally damn good bonus.


I didn't say it was a bad bonus. I was under the impression that it was stacking penalised though. From what I knew, everything that is a % effect is penalised, with the Damage Control and the new adaptive plating being a second category that are stacking penalised with each other but not with everything else. Google tells me that ship bonuses are exempt. Ah well, live and learn.

I still don't see this as a problem, merely a difference. 5% rate of fire is inherently better than 5% damage, yet no one complains about this difference. I also think you're looking at these bonuses in complete isolation, when they are only part of the whole.

It's only a problem because this 25% bonus to resists is equivalent to a 25% bonus to rep amount, so it obsoletes those. Then it's also a 25% bonus to incoming remote reps AND buffer. You get the best of all 3 worlds. It's too universally strong.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2012-11-07 21:46:44 UTC
They should lower the resist bonus to 4% per level. That would be plenty.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#53 - 2012-11-07 21:55:59 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
It's only a problem because this 25% bonus to resists is equivalent to a 25% bonus to rep amount, so it obsoletes those. Then it's also a 25% bonus to incoming remote reps AND buffer. You get the best of all 3 worlds. It's too universally strong.


Last time I checked, 37.5% was better than 25%...
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2012-11-07 21:57:15 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Last time I checked, 37.5% was better than 25%...
But is it better than two 25%s?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#55 - 2012-11-07 21:58:48 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
They should lower the resist bonus to 4% per level. That would be plenty.


As it has been said, it doesn't matter how strong or weak the bonuses are. The resistances apply in all three tanking scenarios, while the active tanking bonuses apply only in one.

However, I must say that I didn't think about wormhole effects at all. Are some WH sites only runnable with active repairing bonuses? If so, why? What do they do exactly?

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#56 - 2012-11-07 22:00:37 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Last time I checked, 37.5% was better than 25%...
But is it better than two 25%s?


Nope, but so what? You only get one 25%
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#57 - 2012-11-07 22:05:24 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Last time I checked, 37.5% was better than 25%...


Please check:

Iris Bravemount wrote:
First of all, let's demonstrate that the resist bonuses are (almost) just as good for active tanking than the active tank bonuses.

All skills at V Prophecy with just a medium armor repairer II fitted: up to 70 ehp/s repaired.
All skills at V Myrmidon with just a medium armor repairer II fitted: up to 72 ehp/s repaired.

That's less than 3% more for the Myrmidon.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#58 - 2012-11-07 22:25:21 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Last time I checked, 37.5% was better than 25%...


Please check:

Iris Bravemount wrote:
First of all, let's demonstrate that the resist bonuses are (almost) just as good for active tanking than the active tank bonuses.

All skills at V Prophecy with just a medium armor repairer II fitted: up to 70 ehp/s repaired.
All skills at V Myrmidon with just a medium armor repairer II fitted: up to 72 ehp/s repaired.

That's less than 3% more for the Myrmidon.


Yup, 37.5% is still bigger than 25%. Also 72 is bigger than 70.

But you are STILL looking at only a single part of the balance of these ships.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2012-11-07 22:37:01 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
However, I must say that I didn't think about wormhole effects at all. Are some WH sites only runnable with active repairing bonuses? If so, why? What do they do exactly?
I haven't run the sites myself but I was talking with someone who had significant experience and strong ties with groups running these. Apparently, the lower classes have lesser effects, but in class 4 and up, the bonuses and penalties get really strong. I was noticing that some of the anomalies had no clear way to take advantage of it, while others were easy to take advantage of. Apparently the sleepers are the same in any case, and totally unprepared for the local anomalies, so the best systems for ratting are the ones in which you can reap the largest advantage over them. For instance, a Cataclysmic Variable increases your remote reps while decreasing on-board reps. So you have to use logi, but since you have to at that level anyway (for subcaps at least), it's easily taken advantage of. Magnetars, on the other hand, only boost your damage while reducing your range. High-class sleepers probably can't be killed fast enough (even with double damage) to make up for not having a massive tank boost.

But by simple math, it seems that the ship's tank bonuses will stack cumulatively (not additively) with the anomaly effects, and should therefore have the same amount of advantage either way, provided they are being used.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#60 - 2012-11-07 22:46:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Iris Bravemount
Paikis wrote:
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Last time I checked, 37.5% was better than 25%...


Please check:

Iris Bravemount wrote:
First of all, let's demonstrate that the resist bonuses are (almost) just as good for active tanking than the active tank bonuses.

All skills at V Prophecy with just a medium armor repairer II fitted: up to 70 ehp/s repaired.
All skills at V Myrmidon with just a medium armor repairer II fitted: up to 72 ehp/s repaired.

That's less than 3% more for the Myrmidon.


Yup, 37.5% is still bigger than 25%. Also 72 is bigger than 70.

But you are STILL looking at only a single part of the balance of these ships.


And you are STILL talking about ships, while I only talk about the bonuses. I know that the PWG, CPU, slot distribution, base HP and even base resistances vary between hulls and races.

If replacing all active tank bonuses with resist bonuses requires some tweaking of the other stats for balance sake, I have no problem with that. I just think that all defensively inclined ships should benefit from the versatility the resist bonuses offer. (Or none should, and the resist bonuses should be replaced with HP bonuses).

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed