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3rd low on Retriever
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Traedar
InterStellar Trading Syndicate
#1 - 2012-11-04 13:48:39 UTC
Hi,

I was just wondering why the Retriever was given a 3rd low slot compared to the other barge hulls. As if the afk mining advantage of massive ore hold wasn't enough, it gets a 3rd low slot which nulls out some of the Covetor hull's advantage and gives it an advantage in yield over the Procurer.

It would seem to me that either the Retriever should have a low taken away or the other hulls should get an extra low. Or maybe the Retriever is supposed to have an advantage over the other hulls, I dunno. Any ideas what the deal is?
Dave stark
#2 - 2012-11-04 14:09:17 UTC
Traedar wrote:
Hi,

I was just wondering why the Retriever was given a 3rd low slot compared to the other barge hulls. As if the afk mining advantage of massive ore hold wasn't enough, it gets a 3rd low slot which nulls out some of the Covetor hull's advantage and gives it an advantage in yield over the Procurer.

It would seem to me that either the Retriever should have a low taken away or the other hulls should get an extra low. Or maybe the Retriever is supposed to have an advantage over the other hulls, I dunno. Any ideas what the deal is?


yes it is meant to have the extra low because it's the middle yield ship, without the third low it can't be the middle yield ship.
Traedar
InterStellar Trading Syndicate
#3 - 2012-11-04 17:26:18 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Traedar wrote:
Hi,

I was just wondering why the Retriever was given a 3rd low slot compared to the other barge hulls. As if the afk mining advantage of massive ore hold wasn't enough, it gets a 3rd low slot which nulls out some of the Covetor hull's advantage and gives it an advantage in yield over the Procurer.

It would seem to me that either the Retriever should have a low taken away or the other hulls should get an extra low. Or maybe the Retriever is supposed to have an advantage over the other hulls, I dunno. Any ideas what the deal is?


yes it is meant to have the extra low because it's the middle yield ship, without the third low it can't be the middle yield ship.


How the extra low makes this the "middle yield ship" is beyond me. By that logic, shouldn't the Covetor (assuming the Covetor is the "high yield ship") have 4 low slots instead of the current 2?

And as of Inferno 1.2 the Retriever is not the "middle yield ship" anyway. It is the "self-reliance" ship which means large ore hold.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#4 - 2012-11-04 18:22:22 UTC
The only problem really is the covertor should have a slightly bigger ore yield bonus. The slot layouts are fine for the roles - covertor being higher yield but more hands on getting the extra high slot and retriever being lower yield but more capable of prolonged ops getting the extra low slot instead.
Kosetzu
The Black Crow Bandits
Northern Coalition.
#5 - 2012-11-04 18:51:09 UTC
[Cargo] Retriever gets
2*1912=3824 m3/180 sec with max yield fit

[Yield] Covetor gets
3x1403=4209 m3/180 sec with max yield fit

[Tank] Procurer gets
2005m3/180 sec with its one turret.

The third lowslot lets the Retriever have better yield than the Procurer which is built around tank. Same thing applies to the Exhumers, where the Mackinaw gets 3 lowslots. It gives more utility for fitting tank if desired though.
Huttan Funaila
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-11-04 19:31:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Huttan Funaila
Well, with 3 low slots, you could fit things like a DCU or nano or armor instead of 3x MLU so that you can survive ganking better.
Traedar
InterStellar Trading Syndicate
#7 - 2012-11-04 20:30:12 UTC

I hate to be a killjoy but there is some stuff in this thread which doesn't make sense to me.

Huttan Funaila wrote:
Well, with 3 low slots, you could fit things like a DCU or nano or armor instead of 3x MLU so that you can survive ganking better.


You could also just use a Procurer, the intended tanking ship, which gets the same yield as Retriever (other than the Retriever's extra low slot). Its ore hold is smaller but still holds quite a bit. They are selling pretty cheap, too, and require only 1 turret.

Kosetzu wrote:
[Cargo] Retriever gets
2*1912=3824 m3/180 sec with max yield fit

[Yield] Covetor gets
3x1403=4209 m3/180 sec with max yield fit

[Tank] Procurer gets
2005m3/180 sec with its one turret.

The third lowslot lets the Retriever have better yield than the Procurer which is built around tank. Same thing applies to the Exhumers, where the Mackinaw gets 3 lowslots. It gives more utility for fitting tank if desired though.


Not sure where you're getting your numbers from but the Procurer and the Retriever have the same yield other than the Retriever's extra low slot. This would seem to be intended as neither of these ships is a "yield" ship (that's the Covetor). Of course, if you want to tank your Retriever you should just use the tanking barge (Procurer) so why would you reward people who are trying to tank using the barge that isn't for tanking?

There is no better/worse Mining Barge, which is/was the whole point of the rebalancing. The roles for Mining Barges are:

Procurer: Self defense (Tank)
Retriever: Self-Reliance (Ore hold)
Covetor: Yield

This is true except for the Retriever's extra low which gives it an advantage over Procurer and closes the yield gap with the Covetor. So, again, what is the point of the Retriever having an extra low?

It seems to me the other hulls should be given another low (Covetor/Hulk may need extra CPU, not sure).
Kosetzu
The Black Crow Bandits
Northern Coalition.
#8 - 2012-11-04 22:25:32 UTC
Traedar wrote:
Not sure where you're getting your numbers from but the Procurer and the Retriever have the same yield other than the Retriever's extra low slot. This would seem to be intended as neither of these ships is a "yield" ship (that's the Covetor). Of course, if you want to tank your Retriever you should just use the tanking barge (Procurer) so why would you reward people who are trying to tank using the barge that isn't for tanking?

There is no better/worse Mining Barge, which is/was the whole point of the rebalancing. The roles for Mining Barges are:

Procurer: Self defense (Tank)
Retriever: Self-Reliance (Ore hold)
Covetor: Yield

This is true except for the Retriever's extra low which gives it an advantage over Procurer and closes the yield gap with the Covetor. So, again, what is the point of the Retriever having an extra low?

It seems to me the other hulls should be given another low (Covetor/Hulk may need extra CPU, not sure).


You assume a lot. I pulled the yield numbers from an all 5 character and fit the ships with max miners/upgrades with T2 modules and crystals. While the Procurer is the 'intended' tanky barge, it does not mean you MUST fly it to bother with a tank.

My comparison was to give a better idea of how the yield is across the barges, when fit for the same purpose. You wouldn't fit the Procurer for tank when comparing the yield it can get compared to a Retriever or Covetor.

The Procurer does in no way get the same yield as the Retriever, even if you dedicate all your lows to tank. You would want to tank your Retriever if you want to afk with some sort of tank, as the Procurer does not have nearly the same ore hold capacity as the Retriever.

The Mining Barge/Exhumer slots are fine as they are. Making everything the same won't make the game any more fun either. While CCP made roles for t he mining ships, which was very much needed, they don't force you to use a ship because it has a 'role' bonus for it. From what you say people who fly Procurers with a yield fit, or Covetors with a tanky fit are doing it wrong. There's no such as right or wrong in a sandbox universe like EVE.
Traedar
InterStellar Trading Syndicate
#9 - 2012-11-04 23:06:26 UTC
You're right, I'm assuming a mining barge is fitted with MLU/IHU in the low. After all Covetor and Retriever don't have their strengths as tanks, and a Procurer can fit a fine shield buffer tank with just its med slots.

Honestly, if you aren't fitting your barge to max its yield then you are probably using the wrong barge or overtanking your Procurer (or giving it extreme tank for some special case like to tank 0.0 rats or something). But you're right I'm assuming a bit there. Still doesn't explain why the Retriever needs a 3rd low.

I'm not sure I'm reading you right but: A Procurer with 2 MLU2 and same skills and fits and boosts gets exactly the same yield m3/180sec as a Retriever with 2 MLU2. But the 3rd MLU2 puts the Retriever over the top in yield and closes it in on the Covetor.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-11-05 00:38:54 UTC
Traedar wrote:
Hi,

I was just wondering why the Retriever was given a 3rd low slot compared to the other barge hulls. As if the afk mining advantage of massive ore hold wasn't enough, it gets a 3rd low slot which nulls out some of the Covetor hull's advantage and gives it an advantage in yield over the Procurer.

It would seem to me that either the Retriever should have a low taken away or the other hulls should get an extra low. Or maybe the Retriever is supposed to have an advantage over the other hulls, I dunno. Any ideas what the deal is?


basicaly to bring it or yield more in line with the hulks as ccp didnt want the gaps to be as massive as it was
Moonlit Raid
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-11-05 01:25:28 UTC
That is all.

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.