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super T3
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#21 - 2012-11-03 22:44:12 UTC
trylik banilise wrote:
and also, by that logic, frigates should have the firepower of battleships, because apparently the skills and costs dont work as a balancing factor (because the reason frigates are weak is because they are so easy to get.)

No. Frigates have the firepower of frigates because they are small and fast and can easily avoid things that have the firepower of battleships, so letting them have more would make them too powerful. In fact, some would argue that they already are with the kind of damage they can deliver.

Cost and training time are not factors in that balance — they're there to create progression.
Jackal Datapaw
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-11-03 22:47:15 UTC

Cost doesn't work as a balancing because of this, the players are the ones that make said ship, if they deem that the cost of the ship or the cost of the collection of parts for the ship is 1 isk, then it shall be 1 isk. So cost don't hold water in balance. Also skills don't hold water in balance ither cause here why. The ability to transfer characters to other people's accounts, people do sell characters for isk.

You propose this /super awsome lego ship./ or SALOS, but you purpose no numbers, nor true balancing, no nothing, if anything CCP would never make this cause they do NOT HAVE ENOUGH INFO.

commonly suggest cloaking and local ideas

trylik banilise
Tarili of Charkras
#23 - 2012-11-03 22:48:09 UTC
serras bang wrote:
trylik banilise wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Define “super”.

Also, rip out any mention of skills or costs from your idea, especially form the balancing section, and see if it still holds water — neither works as balancing factors.

and also, by that logic, frigates should have the firepower of battleships, because apparently the skills and costs dont work as a balancing factor (because the reason frigates are weak is because they are so easy to get.)



actualy asualt frigs can do lvl 4's

I was referring to T1 frigates. also, thats also like saying that T1 should be as good as T2, because apparently the money and time required doesnt make for very good balancing.
trylik banilise
Tarili of Charkras
#24 - 2012-11-03 22:49:30 UTC
Jackal Datapaw wrote:

Cost doesn't work as a balancing because of this, the players are the ones that make said ship, if they deem that the cost of the ship or the cost of the collection of parts for the ship is 1 isk, then it shall be 1 isk. So cost don't hold water in balance. Also skills don't hold water in balance ither cause here why. The ability to transfer characters to other people's accounts, people do sell characters for isk.

You propose this /super awsome lego ship./ or SALOS, but you purpose no numbers, nor true balancing, no nothing, if anything CCP would never make this cause they do NOT HAVE ENOUGH INFO.

by cost, I meant material usage. the players that make it judge the ISK cost mayby, but how many minerals it would take. and if thats true (characters for isk) then you could just say lets get rid of dreadnaughts, people may do that.
trylik banilise
Tarili of Charkras
#25 - 2012-11-03 22:51:04 UTC
Tippia wrote:
trylik banilise wrote:
and also, by that logic, frigates should have the firepower of battleships, because apparently the skills and costs dont work as a balancing factor (because the reason frigates are weak is because they are so easy to get.)

No. Frigates have the firepower of frigates because they are small and fast and can easily avoid things that have the firepower of battleships, so letting them have more would make them too powerful. In fact, some would argue that they already are with the kind of damage they can deliver.

Cost and training time are not factors in that balance — they're there to create progression.

yes, I... *sigh*.
ok, its a factor in balancing because the idea is that it would take time to progress to this.

ok, thats it- what is your definition of 'balance'? if that isnt balance, I dont know what is.
trylik banilise
Tarili of Charkras
#26 - 2012-11-03 22:53:11 UTC
trylik banilise wrote:
Tippia wrote:
trylik banilise wrote:
and also, by that logic, frigates should have the firepower of battleships, because apparently the skills and costs dont work as a balancing factor (because the reason frigates are weak is because they are so easy to get.)

No. Frigates have the firepower of frigates because they are small and fast and can easily avoid things that have the firepower of battleships, so letting them have more would make them too powerful. In fact, some would argue that they already are with the kind of damage they can deliver.

Cost and training time are not factors in that balance — they're there to create progression.

yes, I... *sigh*.
ok, its a factor in balancing because the idea is that it would take time to progress to this.

ok, thats it- what is your definition of 'balance'? if that isnt balance, I dont know what is.

ok, how about this: the CPU, powergrid, etc, would limit them to be only as powerful as other ships of the same class, role, and size. you happy yet?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#27 - 2012-11-03 22:59:25 UTC
trylik banilise wrote:
ok, its a factor in balancing because the idea is that it would take time to progress to this.
…except that something that everyone achieves is not a balancing factor. For the same reason, cost is not a balancing factor. Both are lessons hard-earned in this game, since we now are stuck with supercaps that were initially thought possible to balance using those two methods.

Quote:
ok, thats it- what is your definition of 'balance'? if that isnt balance, I dont know what is.
If you fly a big ship, you have trouble hurting small ships, and vice versa. Or, rather, if you are in a large ship, you can take a ton of damage but you also have no way of avoiding that damage, whereas if you're in a small ship, you can't take much damage, but you won't receive a ton of it either. If you fit a lot of tank, you give up gank. If you're in a ship that can disable half a fleet, you will yourself be disabled exploded very easily. You give up one thing to gain another.

Skills and money are things you recuperate — you may have to choose right now, but not in the long run (hell, with the money and SP-making capabilities these days, not even in the short run).
trylik banilise
Tarili of Charkras
#28 - 2012-11-03 23:01:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
trylik banilise wrote:
ok, its a factor in balancing because the idea is that it would take time to progress to this.
…except that something that everyone achieves is not a balancing factor. For the same reason, cost is not a balancing factor. Both are lessons hard-earned in this game, since we now are stuck with supercaps that were initially thought possible to balance using those two methods.

Quote:
ok, thats it- what is your definition of 'balance'? if that isnt balance, I dont know what is.
If you fly a big ship, you have trouble hurting small ships, and vice versa. Or, rather, if you are in a large ship, you can take a ton of damage but you also have no way of avoiding that damage, whereas if you're in a small ship, you can't take much damage, but you won't receive a ton of it either. If you fit a lot of tank, you give up gank. If you're in a ship that can disable half a fleet, you will yourself be disabled exploded very easily. You give up one thing to gain another.

Skills and money are things you recuperate — you may have to choose right now, but not in the long run (hell, with the money and SP-making capabilities these days, not even in the short run).

ok then, check my second-most-recent comment, that addreses that.
Jackal Datapaw
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-11-03 23:02:30 UTC
trylik banilise wrote:
Jackal Datapaw wrote:

Cost doesn't work as a balancing because of this, the players are the ones that make said ship, if they deem that the cost of the ship or the cost of the collection of parts for the ship is 1 isk, then it shall be 1 isk. So cost don't hold water in balance. Also skills don't hold water in balance ither cause here why. The ability to transfer characters to other people's accounts, people do sell characters for isk.

You propose this /super awsome lego ship./ or SALOS, but you purpose no numbers, nor true balancing, no nothing, if anything CCP would never make this cause they do NOT HAVE ENOUGH INFO.

by cost, I meant material usage. the players that make it judge the ISK cost mayby, but how many minerals it would take. and if thats true (characters for isk) then you could just say lets get rid of dreadnaughts, people may do that.


Dreadnaughts also have a role as well. You super T3s do not, and most of the time, dreadnaughts are kept to corp warfare only because the amount of cost it takes AFTER IT IS BUILT is hunormas! What you propose is a ship of rather high possible rate of return in just anyone's hands, oh like thats not going to be abused at all.

commonly suggest cloaking and local ideas

Siobhan MacLeary
Doomheim
#30 - 2012-11-03 23:04:19 UTC
I don't think you've thought out this idea very thoroughly - what need or role would such a ship fill, aside from being an expensive vanity piece?

Honestly, if you want to be able to customize how your ship looks, that's great. I'd like to be able to paint my ship with my corp and alliance logos, et cetera. But suggesting custom hulls that are anything but e-peen boosters makes no sense.

Additionally, I don't think you realize the additional server load that this could cause with loading a custom model for every single capsuleer. It might work well in lightly populated areas, but if there was ever a large fleet fight, these custom models would make TiDi kick in sooner.

Part of the issue with stuff like this is scalability. I talked to CCP Fozzie a bit about making more subcaps like the Guardian-Vexor (able to field more than 1 flight of drones), and while he agreed that it would be nice, especially for the drone users, it's a problem of scalability. What works well with one or ten pilots won't necessarily work well with a hundred of a thousand pilots all in one system.

Anything like this needs to be thought out thoroughly. Even a frigate-sized ship could be designed to have a model as resource intensive as possible.

“Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.” - CCP Soundwave
trylik banilise
Tarili of Charkras
#31 - 2012-11-03 23:05:21 UTC
Jackal Datapaw wrote:
trylik banilise wrote:
Jackal Datapaw wrote:

Cost doesn't work as a balancing because of this, the players are the ones that make said ship, if they deem that the cost of the ship or the cost of the collection of parts for the ship is 1 isk, then it shall be 1 isk. So cost don't hold water in balance. Also skills don't hold water in balance ither cause here why. The ability to transfer characters to other people's accounts, people do sell characters for isk.

You propose this /super awsome lego ship./ or SALOS, but you purpose no numbers, nor true balancing, no nothing, if anything CCP would never make this cause they do NOT HAVE ENOUGH INFO.

by cost, I meant material usage. the players that make it judge the ISK cost mayby, but how many minerals it would take. and if thats true (characters for isk) then you could just say lets get rid of dreadnaughts, people may do that.


Dreadnaughts also have a role as well. You super T3s do not, and most of the time, dreadnaughts are kept to corp warfare only because the amount of cost it takes AFTER IT IS BUILT is hunormas! What you propose is a ship of rather high possible rate of return in just anyone's hands, oh like thats not going to be abused at all.

they do have a role, whatever you choose it to be. your acting like its a specific type of ship, it isnt. this would Include dreadnaughts. and what is the high return rate? there would only be normal return rate. you cant have stats on the ship- the idea is that the stats would change depending on how you make it.

this isnt a KIND of ship, or just a ship. its a way to get other ships, of types that already exist.
trylik banilise
Tarili of Charkras
#32 - 2012-11-03 23:07:29 UTC
Siobhan MacLeary wrote:
I don't think you've thought out this idea very thoroughly - what need or role would such a ship fill, aside from being an expensive vanity piece?

Honestly, if you want to be able to customize how your ship looks, that's great. I'd like to be able to paint my ship with my corp and alliance logos, et cetera. But suggesting custom hulls that are anything but e-peen boosters makes no sense.

Additionally, I don't think you realize the additional server load that this could cause with loading a custom model for every single capsuleer. It might work well in lightly populated areas, but if there was ever a large fleet fight, these custom models would make TiDi kick in sooner.

Part of the issue with stuff like this is scalability. I talked to CCP Fozzie a bit about making more subcaps like the Guardian-Vexor (able to field more than 1 flight of drones), and while he agreed that it would be nice, especially for the drone users, it's a problem of scalability. What works well with one or ten pilots won't necessarily work well with a hundred of a thousand pilots all in one system.

Anything like this needs to be thought out thoroughly. Even a frigate-sized ship could be designed to have a model as resource intensive as possible.

I didnt suggest.... ok, listen everyone. read the article again. I never suggested custom hulls, sheeshdangit. and the role would be, as I said a moment ago, the same as the size or class of ship it belonged too. you are treating this like it is something it isnt- like a kind of new ship, not the ability to create variants of old ships.
Jackal Datapaw
Doomheim
#33 - 2012-11-03 23:12:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jackal Datapaw
trylik banilise wrote:
I was just going to state an idea of mine, involving custom ships.

the idea was that there would be a number of... chasis's for the base ships. like, hulls. (all existing ones, plus some new ones. and all existing includes NPC ones!) when you started this process- dont know what it should be called, some industrial thing- then you could modify the texture, color, and even size of the ship to some extent. instead of just modifing the hull though, you are making a new ship- you could change the hull by placing items- wings, engines, ship extensions (which would be the main customizing option) and other things like that. this would make it possible to make your own ship- imagine making a corporation vessel to replace the usual amarr ships you fly! each item you place on it would have an effect on the strengths and weaknesses of the ship. for instance, wings might increase armor a bit, or mayby provide fitting slots. but, also, bad sides: the wings might increase signature radius, skill needs, and other things like that. it would work similar to the T3 cruisers, but to a much larger extent.

also, these would be COMPLETELY new ships. they arent just hulls with different configs. these are completely new ships, with the hull just providing a base which you would then modify to suit you.

balancing: the ships would need alot fo skills to use and build, everything would have just as many bad sides as good sides. that way, everything would be balanced and counterbalanced. also, the costs would be extreme, and the ships would be unbuyable in the market. since all sorts of things would be in the customization, the objects would increase costs very quickly, and these modifications would have powergrid and CPU costs, except mayby some which would increase that.

please tell me any comments, or opinions, you may have about my idea. I will explain anything you may not understand, and will modify my idea accordingly.

and please, PLEASE comment. I mean, if you view this and dont comment, I will spend the rest of my life in revenge.
well, not really... but please?


I highlighted the parts for you where you infact suggested custom hulls

I also bolded the part where you infact yourself said these were new kinds of ships.

commonly suggest cloaking and local ideas

trylik banilise
Tarili of Charkras
#34 - 2012-11-04 23:12:41 UTC
Jackal Datapaw wrote:
trylik banilise wrote:
I was just going to state an idea of mine, involving custom ships.

the idea was that there would be a number of... chasis's for the base ships. like, hulls. (all existing ones, plus some new ones. and all existing includes NPC ones!) when you started this process- dont know what it should be called, some industrial thing- then you could modify the texture, color, and even size of the ship to some extent. instead of just modifing the hull though, you are making a new ship- you could change the hull by placing items- wings, engines, ship extensions (which would be the main customizing option) and other things like that. this would make it possible to make your own ship- imagine making a corporation vessel to replace the usual amarr ships you fly! each item you place on it would have an effect on the strengths and weaknesses of the ship. for instance, wings might increase armor a bit, or mayby provide fitting slots. but, also, bad sides: the wings might increase signature radius, skill needs, and other things like that. it would work similar to the T3 cruisers, but to a much larger extent.

also, these would be COMPLETELY new ships. they arent just hulls with different configs. these are completely new ships, with the hull just providing a base which you would then modify to suit you.

balancing: the ships would need alot fo skills to use and build, everything would have just as many bad sides as good sides. that way, everything would be balanced and counterbalanced. also, the costs would be extreme, and the ships would be unbuyable in the market. since all sorts of things would be in the customization, the objects would increase costs very quickly, and these modifications would have powergrid and CPU costs, except mayby some which would increase that.

please tell me any comments, or opinions, you may have about my idea. I will explain anything you may not understand, and will modify my idea accordingly.

and please, PLEASE comment. I mean, if you view this and dont comment, I will spend the rest of my life in revenge.
well, not really... but please?


I highlighted the parts for you where you infact suggested custom hulls

I also bolded the part where you infact yourself said these were new kinds of ships.


ok, I said modify EXISTING hulls, meaning you CHANGE hulls that already exist, not make completely new ones.
2: a completely new ship, not a completely new kind of ship.
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