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How do we tackle inflation.
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Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2012-11-02 22:11:06 UTC
Sara Mars wrote:
Where does "Nicky Yo" stand on this issue?

Hopefully in front of an oncomming train. Seriously, don't call that idiot in to this thread.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#62 - 2012-11-02 22:12:00 UTC
Sara Mars wrote:
Where does "Nicky Yo" stand on this issue?

I heard he's being asked to stand for CSM 8. Blink

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-11-02 22:18:04 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:


You could try making some money, and perhaps then you wouldn't be so poor.


Video game inflation means that people have to much isk and not enough people are poor.

Not being poor is what leads to inflation in EVE.

But you didn't care about being constructive so....




First thing you do to combat inflation in EVE, blow up more ships.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#64 - 2012-11-02 22:19:42 UTC
Marzuq wrote:
The supplies of isk have increased. But it's sinks have diminished. The supply of plex have remained consistent but it's demand and sinks have increased?

How do we solve this? Simple like the real world economy we create more taxes. There will be a tax for everything.


Inflation is entirely caused, increased, or decreased by the money supply. Taxation does not impact inflation. Now taxation in EvE would, because the only economy that matters is the player economy, which is inflated or not by two mechanisms (only one of which CCP can control): Players and faucets/sinks.

Quote:
1. Gate toll tax a rate of 100 isk per jump. Inability to pay won't stop you from jumping but will be taken from any transaction.

2. Station usage services and hangar tax.

3. Ship tax. You are required to pay a flat Tax based on ship mineral cost.

4. Local communications tax to utilize local.

5. Docking/undocking task.


1. How would you explain that for non empire gates?

2. Station services already have associated fees.

3. Are you stating that you want ship property taxes which are based on the evolving value of the ship? How will you make this not become a total mess?

4. Supported, even more supported if you have to pay it to even see Local.

5. Docking fees make some sort of sense, maybe if they were combined with your ship tax plan.

Quote:
And much much more.

This new tax system will nickel and dime everyone helping combat excess isk.


You'd make a good Democrat or Republican.

My Libertarian ass however, will be declaring war on you Tuesday.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2012-11-02 22:30:02 UTC
I'm trying hard to sink ISK via costs for clones !

Not my clones, of course. ^_^
NARDAC
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2012-11-02 22:37:39 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:


You could try making some money, and perhaps then you wouldn't be so poor.


Video game inflation means that people have to much isk and not enough people are poor.

Not being poor is what leads to inflation in EVE.

But you didn't care about being constructive so....




First thing you do to combat inflation in EVE, blow up more ships.



Actually, creating demand for more ships will increase inflation, not decrease it.


Inflation = too much ISK AND not enough stuff to buy with the ISK.

Make more stuff = deflation
Buy less stuff = deflation



Build less = inflaition
Buy more stuff (like from more boom) = inflation
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#67 - 2012-11-02 22:39:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

First thing you do to combat inflation in EVE, blow up more ships.

Clever Blink

Which increases demand which increases prices which........

The cash used to purchase the ship goes to......

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2012-11-02 22:43:37 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

First thing you do to combat inflation in EVE, blow up more ships.

Clever Blink

Which increases demand which increases prices which........

The cash used to purchase the ship goes to......


...highsec manufacturing?

Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime.
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#69 - 2012-11-02 22:44:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenneth O'Hara
NARDAC wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
What's really gonna blow your mind is when you realize that there is no such thing as "inflation" in EVE. The economy here is player controlled and there isn't governments creating money out of thin air. ..



Perhaps you should take an econ 101 class.

Inflation is caused by too much money chasing too few goods, whatever the source of the money.

And i the real world, most money is not created directly by government, but rather by people taking out loans from banks. There are $38T US dollars ($43T if you count what the USA Fed Gov owes itself in the form of trust funds). Of that the federal governmetn has created $11T ($16 if you count trust funds) of that money.

Every time you use a credit card, or take out some other loan, you create money, and offsetting debt.

Ok, let me clarify here since it was wrong word usage. The gov't doesn't make money. The federal reserve prints money with nothing backing it so there for, the federal reserve makes money out of thin air. This subject matter here is off topic though and does not relate to EVE.

But here you are applying real world economics to a game. The same mechanics don't apply. Yes, real word inflation is based on supply and demand. Someone demands it and someone supplies it and charges based on the abundance of whatever. There is an infinite supply of everything in EVE! The only thing you pay for when you purchase something is the compensation of another players time, effort and theoretical risk/loss.

What causes inflation in a game environment is the lack of circulation of currency or velocity of money. There is trillions upon trillions of isk within the EVE economy and it's not being circulated because of older players and corps holding on to it. What really needs to happen to drop inflation is war and lots of it. So that money is being circulated to pay for supplies. Thus, helping new players fuel the war effort.

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#70 - 2012-11-02 22:56:55 UTC
NARDAC wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:


You could try making some money, and perhaps then you wouldn't be so poor.


Video game inflation means that people have to much isk and not enough people are poor.

Not being poor is what leads to inflation in EVE.

But you didn't care about being constructive so....




First thing you do to combat inflation in EVE, blow up more ships.



Actually, creating demand for more ships will increase inflation, not decrease it.


Inflation = too much ISK AND not enough stuff to buy with the ISK.

Make more stuff = deflation
Buy less stuff = deflation



Build less = inflaition
Buy more stuff (like from more boom) = inflation


Overpoduction leads to lower costs which impound inflation. Inflation can't be stopped in a video game, there will always be more ISK coming in than going out. The only way to counter that is for prices to go up, but overproduction in high sec continually drives down costs.

Not to mention a constant flood of minerals.

Inflation is usually offset by a rise in costs, but only works when the wealth is being distributated sufficiently. Blowing things up leads to more spending, which in turn leads to more distribution, and higher prices would offset the impact that inflation has on the economy.

It's ok if things cost a lot, as long as everyone can afford to pay a lot for those things. It's only problem when you can't.


The less destruction there is in EVE the less spending there is, the less distribution there is, and the more goods that sit on the market. The end result being ISK is worth less.

Not enough stuff is being blown in ralation to the amount of stuff being made, and the amount of isk being injected.


In a real economy people would just stop producing good that people aren't buying, and the prices on goods that people are buying would rise. We pay higher prices today because our currency is worth less due to constant printing of money by federal and centralized banks. It's only impact on "stuff" is that it makes it cost more.

Sinse people never stop mining and building, the only way to combat inflation is to destroy more of what gets built and charge more for it at the same time.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#71 - 2012-11-02 22:58:41 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
NARDAC wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
What's really gonna blow your mind is when you realize that there is no such thing as "inflation" in EVE. The economy here is player controlled and there isn't governments creating money out of thin air. ..



Perhaps you should take an econ 101 class.

Inflation is caused by too much money chasing too few goods, whatever the source of the money.

And i the real world, most money is not created directly by government, but rather by people taking out loans from banks. There are $38T US dollars ($43T if you count what the USA Fed Gov owes itself in the form of trust funds). Of that the federal governmetn has created $11T ($16 if you count trust funds) of that money.

Every time you use a credit card, or take out some other loan, you create money, and offsetting debt.

Ok, let me clarify here since it was wrong word usage. The gov't doesn't make money. The federal reserve prints money with nothing backing it so there for, the federal reserve makes money out of thin air. This subject matter here is off topic though and does not relate to EVE.

But here you are applying real world economics to a game. The same mechanics don't apply. Yes, real word inflation is based on supply and demand. Someone demands it and someone supplies it and charges based on the abundance of whatever. There is an infinite supply of everything in EVE! The only thing you pay for when you purchase something is the compensation of another players time, effort and theoretical risk/loss.

What causes inflation in a game environment is the lack of circulation of currency or velocity of money. There is trillions upon trillions of isk within the EVE economy and it's not being circulated because of older players and corps holding on to it. What really needs to happen to drop inflation is war and lots of it. So that money is being circulated to pay for supplies. Thus, helping new players fuel the war effort.

The federal reserve hasn't printed money in over 40 years.

Money is something that replaces an item of value instead of just trading that item.

Fiat currency is what you're describing, and currency isn't money.
Darvaleth Sigma
Imperial Security Hegemony
#72 - 2012-11-02 23:00:17 UTC
Wouldn't an ISK - AUR system help sink ISK without taxing needlessly?

That and more things to buy with the AUR. Maybe even ship skins, etc.; the really wealthy can show off gold lining on their Dreadnoughts, or whatever.

Give a man a match and you warm him for a day.

Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life!
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#73 - 2012-11-02 23:09:33 UTC
Darvaleth Sigma wrote:
Wouldn't an ISK - AUR system help sink ISK without taxing needlessly?

That and more things to buy with the AUR. Maybe even ship skins, etc.; the really wealthy can show off gold lining on their Dreadnoughts, or whatever.

It's not really a problem to make "sinks", the problem is making them desirable enough that people dump enough ISK into them.

It's harder to come up with ways to move ISK out that way than it is to simply tax more. Everyone would be doing something to pay a higher tax, not everyone may be williing to convert ISK into something else to buy something off the NEX.

It would make sense for the empires to raise taxes as more and more isk enters the system.
I would imgine that they'd end up having to create a bunch of silly taxes just for the sake of creating sinks though; it would just be easier to reduce the amount of isk certian people can earn.

Like making higher level missions and rats pay out less, and making NPC's require more ammo to blow up. Sometimes inflation is better than the alternatives.


Just raise prices and blow more stuff up; it's just a game afterall.
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#74 - 2012-11-02 23:11:22 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

The federal reserve hasn't printed money in over 40 years.

Money is something that replaces an item of value instead of just trading that item.

Fiat currency is what you're describing, and currency isn't money.

Interesting, I've always heard the terms used loosely to describe each other. Did not know there was a real difference?
I am doing research on this as I type. If you want to discuss real world economics, we should create a thread in OOPE.

Only certain economic theories work on game economies because of game mechanics and how the economy is driven.

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#75 - 2012-11-02 23:15:21 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Darvaleth Sigma wrote:
Wouldn't an ISK - AUR system help sink ISK without taxing needlessly?

That and more things to buy with the AUR. Maybe even ship skins, etc.; the really wealthy can show off gold lining on their Dreadnoughts, or whatever.

It's not really a problem to make "sinks", the problem is making them desirable enough that people dump enough ISK into them.

It's harder to come up with ways to move ISK out that way than it is to simply tax more. Everyone would be doing something to pay a higher tax, not everyone may be williing to convert ISK into something else to buy something off the NEX.

It would make sense for the empires to raise taxes as more and more isk enters the system.
I would imgine that they'd end up having to create a bunch of silly taxes just for the sake of creating sinks though; it would just be easier to reduce the amount of isk certian people can earn.

Like making higher level missions and rats pay out less, and making NPC's require more ammo to blow up. Sometimes inflation is better than the alternatives.


Just raise prices and blow more stuff up; it's just a game afterall.


As an outside source to give an example of what could be done, in FFXI they removed 13 to 14 billion gil every few months to create the outward flow of money. Not to say that it would work or is a good idea in this situation since CCP wants to keep this player driven.

Just a thought, not what I think should be done.

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2012-11-02 23:18:10 UTC
Inflation can be easily tackled by adding more supply to the demand.

/thread

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#77 - 2012-11-02 23:18:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Rordan D'Kherr wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

First thing you do to combat inflation in EVE, blow up more ships.

Clever Blink

Which increases demand which increases prices which........

The cash used to purchase the ship goes to......


...highsec manufacturing?

Correct. No isk is removed from the game, it simply transfers ownership.

Ultimately, the thing often mistaken here is where people say earning too much isk generates inflation. It does not.

Spending the isk does. You can make people poorer as much as you like but spending patterns don't neccessarily change because people probably need the stuff they actually buy.

I've said only recently that the best sink to "use up money" (if we even have to) is to put a cost on using stuff - such as maintenance costs, depreciation etc. Like we actually have in RL - it is it's own market driver and modifier without the need for PvP as the ONLY method to drive the economy.

I've even said things like making time an actual cost (like wages are in RL).
I've included things like food, fuel (inputs that require funds in RL) etc...

A COST to a presence. Always poo-poo'd. Called as WiS, space barbies etc. None understanding the actual RESULT I'm suggesting - they concentrate on the METHOD in the argument.

I was there should mean it cost me n to be there- it doesn't and judging by the number of people who trounced on even the thought of useage costs is unlikely to ever be.

If we want to compare RL economic theory in Eve we must first accept that we have to use RL economic practise - in it's entirety - not the bits that suit and call it a VR economy in isolation.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Josef Djugashvilis
#78 - 2012-11-02 23:20:16 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Sara Mars wrote:
Where does "Nicky Yo" stand on this issue?

I heard he's being asked to stand for CSM 8. Blink


I am surprised his mom wants ro nominate him.Shocked

This is not a signature.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#79 - 2012-11-03 02:16:47 UTC
I will solve this inflation problem.

Just give me some of your isk, then kick back and watch the results.
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#80 - 2012-11-03 07:35:06 UTC
Marzuq wrote:
The supplies of isk have increased.


No.

Marzuq wrote:
But it's sinks have diminished.


No.

Marzuq wrote:
The supply of plex have remained consistent


No.

Marzuq wrote:
but it's demand and sinks have increased?


No.

Wow, 4/4. The perfect post for GD.