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the t1 Logi ships too powerfull?
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Furey Zateki
Project Omega Industries
Fraternity.
#1 - 2012-11-01 19:53:31 UTC
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/806/20121101135453.jpg Guardian one (Cap trade partner cap stable)
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/654/20121101143302.jpg Basilisk one (Cap trade partner cap stable)
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/4682/20121101143443.jpg Scimitar
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3452/20121101143648.jpg Oneiros

Have MWD fit for them all but the guardian one, that is almost same EHP and are cap stable or close to it (2min 30sec cap life on worst).

So almost same rep as t2 logi ships and same/better EHP for a fraction of their cost (30mil most expensive to fit atm on real server) and training.
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#2 - 2012-11-01 20:09:15 UTC
...dont see nothing wrong here.
Furey Zateki
Project Omega Industries
Fraternity.
#3 - 2012-11-01 20:36:59 UTC
ITTigerClawIK wrote:
...dont see nothing wrong here.


Its like a stabber is more powerfull then the vaga in everyway but just alittle less dps no problem with that? Can you imagine when test/pl gets this and start getting their 1000000000 rifter pilots into this ships that is very low skill needed. Will be even more impossible to beat the blob then usuall. Now people dont have to "waste" time for logi 5 and you dont even need faction cruiser at lvl 5 for them to preform really well.
LtColGreenhalgh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-11-01 21:05:00 UTC
  • This idea is a great idea in general but will have an interesting effect on the way we play the game
    • Let me explain, Every MMO out there has a healer that is effective at every "level". Entry "level" or endgame "level"
    In eve you have to train for two months or more to be an effective logistics fleet pilot
    With these ship it mean that lower Sp players can fly effectively in a fleet and repair people.
  • This is good for logitistics in general everyone can try it out
  • This mean that the tech 2 logisitics ships need to be something special to train towards.

    • thats my thoughts
    Lipbite
    Express Hauler
    #5 - 2012-11-02 19:04:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Lipbite
    Logi4 (enough to fly basi and guardian effectively) takes just 5 days to train. And if pilot doesn't have required skills for logistics book - he'll be even less effective than t2 pilot due to longer target locking time.

    There is no way I'll be allowed to use T1 cruiser instead of T2 in my fleet operations because -1 high slot is a very serious power loss. Also I don't see T2 reps - it's -10% (i.e. -33% total).

    TL;DR nah, they are fine
    Arronicus
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #6 - 2012-11-02 20:42:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Arronicus
    Furey Zateki wrote:


    So almost same rep as t2 logi ships and same/better EHP for a fraction of their cost (30mil most expensive to fit atm on real server) and training.



    Furey Zateki wrote:


    So almost same rep as t2 logi ships



    Furey Zateki wrote:


    almost same rep



    Logistics cruisers: 4 Large reps, generally S95a, or solace.
    Support cruiser: 3-4 MEDIUM reps, s95a or solace.

    Reps for half as much, OR LESS. Scythe and Exequror only get 3 highslots.

    Tanks are also smaller, with lower overall resists. Now even if the EHP is the same, which isn't quite, lower resists means less effectiveness from RR, which is your real tank.


    TL:DR, reps for <50% as much, Weaker tank, balanced and a good entry point for people who can't fly logis, or don't want to waste a fortune to defend some ruptures, but not really viable for hac fleets, etc.
    Bodega Cat
    Expedition Spartica
    #7 - 2012-11-02 22:47:56 UTC
    This game needs LESS logi not more IMO.

    I think quality conflicts should always involve some trade, but with logi, it tends to polarize things too much to the point where the side with more logi faces negligible or even zero losses, while the other is decisively defeated.

    Just my personal view though, and I have zero expectations for this to ever change.
    Furey Zateki
    Project Omega Industries
    Fraternity.
    #8 - 2012-11-03 00:01:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Furey Zateki
    Arronicus wrote:
    Furey Zateki wrote:


    So almost same rep as t2 logi ships and same/better EHP for a fraction of their cost (30mil most expensive to fit atm on real server) and training.



    Furey Zateki wrote:


    So almost same rep as t2 logi ships



    Furey Zateki wrote:


    almost same rep



    Logistics cruisers: 4 Large reps, generally S95a, or solace.
    Support cruiser: 3-4 MEDIUM reps, s95a or solace.

    Reps for half as much, OR LESS. Scythe and Exequror only get 3 highslots.

    Tanks are also smaller, with lower overall resists. Now even if the EHP is the same, which isn't quite, lower resists means less effectiveness from RR, which is your real tank.


    TL:DR, reps for <50% as much, Weaker tank, balanced and a good entry point for people who can't fly logis, or don't want to waste a fortune to defend some ruptures, but not really viable for hac fleets, etc.



    You forgott that the remote reps gets buffed so t2 medium reps is 5% (336 per 4.5sec) lower then a large solace rep and gets 66km range instead of 72km. Atleast in those alliances that i have been in that does pvp have most logi fits as 3 repper fits because of increased tank to have higher chanse to survive then higher repping power and die in a fire with 4 repps. I cant get my test server to work but ive updated the Oneiros fit to have VERY nice tank while it is cap stable with 3 t2 reppers.

    The resists on it is changing and atleast the Oneiros fit on test server that i have have 80%+ on all resists with t2 mods only and armor bonuses.
    Mortimer Civeri
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #9 - 2012-11-03 00:37:29 UTC
    Furey Zateki wrote:
    http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/806/20121101135453.jpg Guardian one (Cap trade partner cap stable)
    http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/654/20121101143302.jpg Basilisk one (Cap trade partner cap stable)
    http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/4682/20121101143443.jpg Scimitar
    http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3452/20121101143648.jpg Oneiros

    Have MWD fit for them all but the guardian one, that is almost same EHP and are cap stable or close to it (2min 30sec cap life on worst).

    So almost same rep as t2 logi ships and same/better EHP for a fraction of their cost (30mil most expensive to fit atm on real server) and training.



    Funny, I don't see a MWD on any of those fits, and that adaptave armor hardener thingie is shite, also you are confusing the MEDIUM reppers repair ammount with the LARGES which normally go on the T2 Logi.

    "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
    Furey Zateki
    Project Omega Industries
    Fraternity.
    #10 - 2012-11-03 00:41:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Furey Zateki
    Mortimer Civeri wrote:
    Furey Zateki wrote:
    http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/806/20121101135453.jpg Guardian one (Cap trade partner cap stable)
    http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/654/20121101143302.jpg Basilisk one (Cap trade partner cap stable)
    http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/4682/20121101143443.jpg Scimitar
    http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3452/20121101143648.jpg Oneiros

    Have MWD fit for them all but the guardian one, that is almost same EHP and are cap stable or close to it (2min 30sec cap life on worst).

    So almost same rep as t2 logi ships and same/better EHP for a fraction of their cost (30mil most expensive to fit atm on real server) and training.



    Funny, I don't see a MWD on any of those fits, and that adaptave armor hardener thingie is shite, also you are confusing the MEDIUM reppers repair ammount with the LARGES which normally go on the T2 Logi.


    you can MWD fit all of them but the guardian one without loosing much tank and you dont seam to have read my last post that the medium reppers t2 is VERY CLOSE to the large meta 4 reppers.

    and in smaller gangs where you wont get Alphad the reactive armor hardener is very nice.
    Garviel Tarrant
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #11 - 2012-11-03 01:21:02 UTC
    Sig/speed/res is what makes t2 logistics so good.


    That being said i don't like the idea of throw away logistics.

    BYDI recruitment closed-ish

    CaiIyn Dove
    DMoney Corp
    Fraternity.
    #12 - 2012-11-03 05:21:29 UTC  |  Edited by: CaiIyn Dove
    Furey Zateki wrote:
    http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/806/20121101135453.jpg Guardian one (Cap trade partner cap stable)
    http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/654/20121101143302.jpg Basilisk one (Cap trade partner cap stable)
    http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/4682/20121101143443.jpg Scimitar
    http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3452/20121101143648.jpg Oneiros

    Have MWD fit for them all but the guardian one, that is almost same EHP and are cap stable or close to it (2min 30sec cap life on worst).

    So almost same rep as t2 logi ships and same/better EHP for a fraction of their cost (30mil most expensive to fit atm on real server) and training.



    Oneiros can literally have 50K EHP, while your Exequror has only 25K, this difference applies to most of the other T2 variants. I worry you have some definitional problem about "almost (the) same".
    Mortimer Civeri
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #13 - 2012-11-03 17:18:05 UTC
    Furey Zateki wrote:

    and in smaller gangs where you wont get Alphad the reactive armor hardener is very nice.


    HAHAHAHA Oh hey the 1% resistance I get every time this piece of shite cycles really is very nice, just don't go through a session change or shut the thing off because it RESETS, and yea 2/3 the repping power is ALMOST THE SAME.

    CaiIyn Dove wrote:
    Oneiros can literally have 50K EHP, while your Exequror has only 25K, this difference applies to most of the other T2 variants. I worry you have some definitional problem about "almost (the) same".


    This too

    "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
    Cajun Style
    Shattered Planet
    #14 - 2012-11-03 20:29:05 UTC
    "Towards this goal these ships are very close to their T2 counterparts in range, speed/agility, cap chain ability, and cap stability. They should be able to hang out with the rest of your Logi crew and do their thing at reduced effectiveness.
    They also rely more strongly on role bonuses than skill bonuses so that they will continue to be viable even without Cruiser 5.
    The downside for their cheapness and low skill requirements will mainly be rep amount (at most 2/3 of a 4 rep T2 Logi), sig radius, sensor strength and ehp/resists.

    Just like the Logi frigate balance pass we're hitting the modules at the same time, reducing some fitting requirements on medium remote reps significantly:" --CCP Fozzie in his devblog.

    Where are you seeing the buff to RR amount on the actual modules? I missed that. Sorry if I'm a terribly inattentive reader.
    Tippia
    Sunshine and Lollipops
    #15 - 2012-11-03 20:45:43 UTC
    Furey Zateki wrote:
    you can MWD fit all of them but the guardian one without loosing much tank and you dont seam to have read my last post that the medium reppers t2 is VERY CLOSE to the large meta 4 reppers.
    Yeah, no.

    3× Medium Meta 4s = 201.6 HP/s transferred from that Scythe.
    4× Large Meta 4s = 307.2 HP/s transferred from the comparable Scimitar.

    50% more is not “very close”.

    Even on an individual basis (336 HP vs 384 HP), it's not “very close” either.
    Furrey Zateki
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #16 - 2012-11-03 20:47:52 UTC
    Mortimer Civeri wrote:
    Furey Zateki wrote:

    and in smaller gangs where you wont get Alphad the reactive armor hardener is very nice.


    HAHAHAHA Oh hey the 1% resistance I get every time this piece of shite cycles really is very nice, just don't go through a session change or shut the thing off because it RESETS, and yea 2/3 the repping power is ALMOST THE SAME.

    CaiIyn Dove wrote:
    Oneiros can literally have 50K EHP, while your Exequror has only 25K, this difference applies to most of the other T2 variants. I worry you have some definitional problem about "almost (the) same".


    This too


    50 EHP with armor bonuses yes that screenshot is not with armor bonuses and i have changed the fit will make screenshot and upload here when test server is up again.

    The repping power is a skill bonus from the ship on the test server.
    Furrey Zateki
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #17 - 2012-11-03 20:52:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Furrey Zateki
    Tippia wrote:
    Furey Zateki wrote:
    you can MWD fit all of them but the guardian one without loosing much tank and you dont seam to have read my last post that the medium reppers t2 is VERY CLOSE to the large meta 4 reppers.
    Yeah, no.

    3× Medium Meta 4s = 201.6 HP/s transferred from that Scythe.
    4× Large Meta 4s = 307.2 HP/s transferred from the comparable Scimitar.

    50% more is not “very close”.

    Even on an individual basis (336 HP vs 384 HP), it's not “very close” either.


    yea sorry i uploaded those pictures with meta 4 reps should be t2 reps but couldnt use those on that char.

    And i mean they are strong in pvp not pve i have not flown any 4 repper in pvp in any fleet ive been in since the alliances that ive been in rather want more EHP on their logi then have them fit as test and die like flies.
    Tippia
    Sunshine and Lollipops
    #18 - 2012-11-03 21:00:52 UTC
    Furrey Zateki wrote:
    yea sorry i uploaded those pictures with meta 4 reps should be t2 reps but couldnt use those on that char.
    Doesn't matter. Aside from T2 mediums being slightly easier on your capacitor than one might expect, the difference is the same.
    Furey Zateki
    Project Omega Industries
    Fraternity.
    #19 - 2012-11-03 21:03:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Furey Zateki
    Tippia wrote:
    Furrey Zateki wrote:
    yea sorry i uploaded those pictures with meta 4 reps should be t2 reps but couldnt use those on that char.
    Doesn't matter. Aside from T2 mediums being slightly easier on your capacitor than one might expect, the difference is the same.



    no the t2 reps is 4.5 cycle while meta 4 is 5sec so 336 every 4.5sec vs 384 every 5sec

    so t2 medium is = 74.6 repping/sec
    meta 4 large = 76.8 repping/sec

    wich is like 3% diff i belive?
    Tippia
    Sunshine and Lollipops
    #20 - 2012-11-03 21:12:55 UTC
    Furey Zateki wrote:
    no the t2 reps is 4.5 cycle while meta 4 is 5sec so 336 every 4.5sec vs 384 every 5sec

    so t2 medium is = 74.6 repping/sec
    meta 4 large = 76.8 repping/sec

    wich is like 3% diff i belive?
    Yes, but the difference between the Scythe and the comparable Scimitar is the same: 50% in total, 15% for the individual repper. Not even close to “very close”.
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