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Must be a tough balancing act
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NARDAC
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2012-11-01 16:09:00 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
NARDAC wrote:
CCP is a for-profit company, meaning they don't just exist to make money, but to make the most money possible.

This means appealing to as wide a rage of the potential market as possible.


This is where you went wrong.

A company printing books in Braille won't throw out all their equipment and buy new printing presses just to start printing regular books to "appeal to as wide market as possible". They have their own niche, their set of customers, and they make money by trying to appeal to this community the best they can.


They print the books in both visual AND Bralle to appeal to the widest audience possible. This is what I'm saying, make both.


What those wanting to force people out of high sec are saying is that if you print Bralle, you should stop printing in visual ink. This will force the people that read visual ink to read Bralle. No... they will just go somewhere else to get their books.



Abdiel Kavash wrote:

It's the same with CCP, they designed EVE to be a unique game, catering to a specific minority of gamers: those that want a harsh player-driven universe where choices have consequences, and interaction with other people is more important than grinding NPCs.

Asking CCP to change the game to your own liking because you think you can make economic decisions for them is just like coming to a Braille bookstore and asking them to sell you regular books.


And CCP found there were not enough hard core gamers looking to play a lawless, free-for-all. They tried to sell Bralle only, and not enough customers showed up to stay in business. So, they started selling visual print ALSO, and now they have way more customers. You are asking them to stop selling visual and go back to Bralle only, thinking all those visual ink people will suddenly switch to Bralle. They won't. They will quit playing the game.


Turn high sec into low sec, you turn high sec into low sec (meaning mostly empty).
NARDAC
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-11-01 16:39:01 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

At some point CCP has/had to accept that only so many people like this kind of thing.


Which kind of thing? Blow up everyone in sight, or can't shoot any other players?

The answer appears to be "both".

You maximize your player base when you create both a place where you can shoot everything in sight, AND a place that is relatively safe for the carebears.

Okay, get rid of the safe place, and the carebears quit playing the game. Now everywhere is as empty as low sec.... How has that helped the people that want to run around shooting anything and everything?


Jenn aSide wrote:

And yet before the day is done someone who doesn't get it will post a "IDEA, EVE would get so many more subs IF!" post detailing about destroying EVE's niche will make the world a better place.


Remember, I'm the one that thinks EVE has the balance pretty good, suggesting only small tweaks.

What I'm saying is that those that whine about all those people in high sec should realize that without high sec, those people would not be playing the game. How does that help the people that want more targets to shoot? At the same time, those whining about getting ganked in high sec need to realize that it is the boom that makes the market. Less boom, less market.

I see no reason that high sec care bears can't exist in the same game with low sec pirates and null sec empire builders.



Jenn aSide wrote:

Sure, CCP can probably squeeze more money out of EVE while keeping to the spirit of the game, but that will always only go so far. What i find (sadly) Amazing is the huge number of people who don't like what EVE is about who keep paying the subs and keep logging in like some masochistic gimp waiting for yet another lash from the whip......


"What EVE is About" is like talking about the meaning of life.

The meaning of your life is whatever you want it to be. My meaning of life does not have to be the same as yours.

What EVE is about to me, is not what it is about to you. And that is okay.

What I'm saying is, stop trying to push your vision of EVE onto me. An ideal situation is one where you can play the game the way you want and I can play the game the way I want.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-11-01 16:50:04 UTC
NARDAC wrote:
Turn high sec into low sec

Where the **** have you gotten this ridiculous idea from?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#24 - 2012-11-01 16:59:34 UTC
NARDAC wrote:
[quote=Jenn aSide]


"What EVE is About" is like talking about the meaning of life.

The meaning of your life is whatever you want it to be. My meaning of life does not have to be the same as yours.

What EVE is about to me, is not what it is about to you. And that is okay.

What I'm saying is, stop trying to push your vision of EVE onto me. An ideal situation is one where you can play the game the way you want and I can play the game the way I want.




Sigh, this again, it's like a gigantic game is ******** wack-a-mole.

EVE is about what it's makers say it's about, and what we can see it's about by playing it. "What it's about" is an easily measurable objective truth, not subjective like some people want it to be.

Everyone can play EVE the way they want now. i could say my "play style" is to suicide every ship i own. Just because I can do it doesn't make it a smart thing to do.
REALITY (in game) dictates whether that "play style" is valid and successful or not (a reality some don't approve of and keep begging CCP to change).

EVE is not and with any luck will not EVER be a game about "something for everyone". It's about harsh competition in unforgiving circumstances, the cold harsh dark niche sandbox that damn near EVERY EVE DEV interview speaks about and that it was envisioned as from day one.

No one is trying to push a vision onto you or anyone else, we're simply saying "this is what EVE is, love it or leave it, stop trying to change it to what you want, there are a million games that coddle and cater to people who don't really like pvp-centric sandboxes, let EVE be unique".
NARDAC
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2012-11-01 18:34:44 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Sigh, this again, it's like a gigantic game is ******** wack-a-mole. EVE is about what it's makers say it's about



Pretty much anytime someone starts a post with a sigh, it means they are about to spew non-sense.

And CCP says it is just a sandbox where people can make it about whatever they want it to be about,


Jenn aSide wrote:

, and what we can see it's about by playing it. "What it's about" is an easily measurable objective truth, not subjective like some people want it to be.


Hmmm... I started out playing faction warfare. The game was about maneuvering fleets into meaningless fights for the fun of winning and losing meaningless fights.

I then spent some time in high sec industrial/missioning corps. Hmmm... the game was about generating 10s of millions of ISK an hour and then trying to figure out what to do with the billion ISK a week.

I then spent some time in a training corp, and ended up in null, where it seemed to be about mining ABCs and plexing for even larger rewards than high sec, then sitting docked up for hours whenever a loan afk cloaker showed up in local.

I ended up flying with goons and test for awhile, where it seems the game is about doing a conga line around a titan for hours, either waiting for the enemy to not engage with their smaller fleet, or deciding we're not going to engage because we have the smaller fleet. Oh, and lots of copy and paste of text based penis's into local.

I then gave up on low sec and went to a high-sec, new player training corp, where I learned that like 99% of the people pretending to be new to the game and looking to learn it, are really just scammers looking to steal from and grief people.

So, from what I've seen, the game is pretty much about, whatever you want it to be about.



Jenn aSide wrote:

Everyone can play EVE the way they want now. i could say my "play style" is to suicide every ship i own. Just because I can do it doesn't make it a smart thing to do.
REALITY (in game) dictates whether that "play style" is valid and successful or not (a reality some don't approve of and keep begging CCP to change).



Define successful.

When I was playing faction warfare and losing ships in meaningless fights, it certainly wasn't profitable. It was fun.

When I was throwing off a billion ISK a week missioning in high sec, it was profitable, but not so much fun for me (though I know people that love it!).


Jenn aSide wrote:

EVE is not and with any luck will not EVER be a game about "something for everyone". It's about harsh competition in unforgiving circumstances, the cold harsh dark niche sandbox that damn near EVERY EVE DEV interview speaks about and that it was envisioned as from day one.


I'd say that right now it IS about something for everyone, and I don't mind that.

Harsh competition... haha. There are SOOO many ways to play this game where there is no harsh competition. Which, of course, is what people are whining about when they complain so much about high sec and how many people live there.


I think what we have here is you projecting your vision of EVE onto others. You are saying that they must have the same "meaning" of the game that you do.



Jenn aSide wrote:

No one is trying to push a vision onto you or anyone else, we're simply saying "this is what EVE is, love it or leave it, stop trying to change it to what you want, there are a million games that coddle and cater to people who don't really like pvp-centric sandboxes, let EVE be unique".


Oh, I disagree. Those calling for the elimination of high sec, and those calling for the elimination of local as a source of intel are in fact pushing their vision onto others.


And yet it is me that is arguing that the game currently has a pretty good mix and should not be radically changed. Maybe a few tweaks, but I think the current mix of high, low and nuill is pretty good and offers something for everyone.

I think you totally miss the point of the thread if you think I'm arguing for major changes to EVE.

Maybe you think this is a PVP-centric sandbox. I see tens, or maybe hundreds of thousands, of players with no interest in PVP. I think that is a great aspect of the sandbox as it is currently set up. If you want to PVP, you can. If you do not want to PVP, there are easy ways to mostly avoid it. Sure, the carebear will still lose a ship to PVP griefers on occasion, but that is not what the game is about to those players.

And no one can make it about that to them. They will quit
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#26 - 2012-11-01 18:37:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Bane Necran
Lord Zim wrote:
NARDAC wrote:
Turn high sec into low sec

Where the **** have you gotten this ridiculous idea from?


It's been a popular suggestion for years now. Although not quite as popular as demands hisec be turned into 0.0. Dozens of threadnauts have been made on both topics.

But try suggesting nullsec be turned to hisec, and devs lash out at you.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Dar Manic
Dirt Road Services
#27 - 2012-11-01 18:42:05 UTC
NARDAC wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

At some point CCP has/had to accept that only so many people like this kind of thing.


Which kind of thing? Blow up everyone in sight, or can't shoot any other players?

The answer appears to be "both".

You maximize your player base when you create both a place where you can shoot everything in sight, AND a place that is relatively safe for the carebears.

Okay, get rid of the safe place, and the carebears quit playing the game. Now everywhere is as empty as low sec.... How has that helped the people that want to run around shooting anything and everything?


Jenn aSide wrote:

And yet before the day is done someone who doesn't get it will post a "IDEA, EVE would get so many more subs IF!" post detailing about destroying EVE's niche will make the world a better place.


Remember, I'm the one that thinks EVE has the balance pretty good, suggesting only small tweaks.

What I'm saying is that those that whine about all those people in high sec should realize that without high sec, those people would not be playing the game. How does that help the people that want more targets to shoot? At the same time, those whining about getting ganked in high sec need to realize that it is the boom that makes the market. Less boom, less market.

I see no reason that high sec care bears can't exist in the same game with low sec pirates and null sec empire builders.



Jenn aSide wrote:

Sure, CCP can probably squeeze more money out of EVE while keeping to the spirit of the game, but that will always only go so far. What i find (sadly) Amazing is the huge number of people who don't like what EVE is about who keep paying the subs and keep logging in like some masochistic gimp waiting for yet another lash from the whip......


"What EVE is About" is like talking about the meaning of life.

The meaning of your life is whatever you want it to be. My meaning of life does not have to be the same as yours.

What EVE is about to me, is not what it is about to you. And that is okay.

What I'm saying is, stop trying to push your vision of EVE onto me. An ideal situation is one where you can play the game the way you want and I can play the game the way I want.




Very reasonable...flames are coming because he's being reasonable but that comes with being in the Eve community.

I just don't understand null sec players.

**Please note: **Anytime I use the phrase PvP in a post, I'm talking about shooting/combat/killing things/blowing things up. Thank you.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-11-01 18:45:56 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
NARDAC wrote:
Turn high sec into low sec

Where the **** have you gotten this ridiculous idea from?


It's been a popular suggestion for years now. Although not quite as popular as demands hisec be turned into 0.0. Dozens of threadnauts have been made on both topics.

But try suggesting nullsec be turned to hisec, and devs lash out at you.

It could be argued that the hisec empires should be their own hisec islands, but that's something which should've been done when the universe was first created, if anything. It's too late now.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
NARDAC
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2012-11-01 18:55:20 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
NARDAC wrote:
Turn high sec into low sec

Where the **** have you gotten this ridiculous idea from?


It's been a popular suggestion for years now. Although not quite as popular as demands hisec be turned into 0.0. Dozens of threadnauts have been made on both topics.

But try suggesting nullsec be turned to hisec, and devs lash out at you.

It could be argued that the hisec empires should be their own hisec islands, but that's something which should've been done when the universe was first created, if anything. It's too late now.



This one I'd agree with... on the first point, but not sure about the second.

I do not understand why nations at war with each other have high sec systems right up to their borders. I would expect at least ONE low sec "DMZ" between the 4 major nations. Can you image the boom that would add to the game?!

Pirates fighting with each other to control these DMZ corridors?! Cool!

Oh,and add cyno jammers to those systems (or just just remove all cynos from low sec would be even better. Keep caps and hot drops to null).

I don't think it is too late.Just take out the current high-to-high gates between waring factions, leaving the low sec routes as the only way through.

Heck, while we're at it, take out all high to null gates too.
NARDAC
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-11-01 18:57:31 UTC
NARDAC wrote:


This one I'd agree with... on the first point, but not sure about the second.

I do not understand why nations at war with each other have high sec systems right up to their borders. I would expect at least ONE low sec "DMZ" between the 4 major nations. Can you image the boom that would add to the game?!

Pirates fighting with each other to control these DMZ corridors?! Cool!

Oh,and add cyno jammers to those systems (or just just remove all cynos from low sec would be even better. Keep caps and hot drops to null).

I don't think it is too late.Just take out the current high-to-high gates between waring factions, leaving the low sec routes as the only way through.

Heck, while we're at it, take out all high to null gates too.




Ooops. I guess I'm proposing more changes to the game to make more boom. My bad.

In my defense, I don't see this as a major change that significantly alters the balance between there being places for PVPers and places for carebears.
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#31 - 2012-11-01 18:58:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Bane Necran
Lord Zim wrote:
It could be argued that the hisec empires should be their own hisec islands, but that's something which should've been done when the universe was first created, if anything. It's too late now.


Yeah, i've always felt it should be that way, too.

Which probably comes as a surprise to some of you. I'm really not against EVE being dangerous at all, just take issue with all discussions about improving EVE degenerating into discussions about how we can screw with people in hisec.

The reason more people aren't in lowsec or 0.0 isn't because hisec is so awesome, it's because everywhere else is so bad. And i don't mean bad in terms of profits. Everyone knows they could make more outside of hisec, but it's still not enough for them to put up with lowsec or 0.0.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
NARDAC
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-11-01 19:43:02 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:

The reason more people aren't in lowsec or 0.0 isn't because hisec is so awesome, it's because everywhere else is so bad. And i don't mean bad in terms of profits. Everyone knows they could make more outside of hisec, but it's still not enough for them to put up with lowsec or 0.0.


Agreed.

People have no desire to be easy targets. Attempts to make them easy targets is far more likely to force them to quit playing than have them suddenly accept being easy targets.

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#33 - 2012-11-01 19:46:03 UTC
NARDAC wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:

The reason more people aren't in lowsec or 0.0 isn't because hisec is so awesome, it's because everywhere else is so bad. And i don't mean bad in terms of profits. Everyone knows they could make more outside of hisec, but it's still not enough for them to put up with lowsec or 0.0.


Agreed.

People have no desire to be easy targets. Attempts to make them easy targets is far more likely to force them to quit playing than have them suddenly accept being easy targets.



Let them quit then. Anyone who lets a little thing like space death get int the way of conquering the Universe and bending thier enemies to their Will isn't really EVE-stock, now are they......

Resist the Pussifcation of EVE CCP, RESIST IT!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-11-01 19:47:16 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
Which probably comes as a surprise to some of you. I'm really not against EVE being dangerous at all, just take issue with all discussions about improving EVE degenerating into discussions about how we can screw with people in hisec.

Actually, the main problem is that hisec people seem to be so anti-change that they react to anything with "OH MY GOD IF YOU NERF HISEC WE WILL ALL QUIT!!!!!!!", even if what's being talked about is a change which won't have that much impact on people living in hisec. And, of course, if asked what the problem is, they'll bring out the most extreme troll suggestions (at least I hope they were trolls) as justification for why nullsec is "out to ruin hisec". vOv

Bane Necran wrote:
The reason more people aren't in lowsec or 0.0 isn't because hisec is so awesome, it's because everywhere else is so bad. And i don't mean bad in terms of profits. Everyone knows they could make more outside of hisec, but it's still not enough for them to put up with lowsec or 0.0.

Pretty much. I PVP in nullsec, but I make my isk in hisec, because the effort/reward ratio makes hisec worth doing over nullsec.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#35 - 2012-11-01 20:07:22 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Geligdio Khan wrote:
People play the game because it is awesome, CCP's goal is to make it as awesome as possible, that is way to make the most money, not farmville players.

Good thing they're working hard to make nullsec worth living in and roaming through, then.

Oh wait, no, they're busy making hisec safe from nullsec guys because nullsec isn't worth living in and roaming around in, so we're getting our tears from hisec instead. Oh well. vOv

You forgot to mention that they're also busy making highsec safe from highsec guys too.

So you've also got all the highsec people who live in highsec just to shoot the people there who feel totally disenfranchised. And people keep telling me that we all have 300 neutral logistics/ganking/spy alts each so we must account for a significant number of subscriptions.
NARDAC
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-11-01 20:18:25 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Let them quit then. Anyone who lets a little thing like space death get int the way of conquering the Universe and bending thier enemies to their Will isn't really EVE-stock, now are they......

Resist the Pussifcation of EVE CCP, RESIST IT!


1) How does them quitting improve the game for you? Turn all high sec into low sec (and by that I mean empty). Is the game now more fun for you?

2) The number of players in high sec proves the game has already been cat-ified. And CCP is the richer for it. It seems that you are asking for them the de-cat-ify it, and cost themselves income in the process. I would not hold my breath on that one, if I were you. Businesses are not in the habit of forgoing profit to appease a segment of their customers.
DFA200
Hard vs Soft
#37 - 2012-11-01 21:55:26 UTC
Solo, you basically cannot start a fight in low sec. You have to go to null, but to get to null, you generally have to go through low. This means you have to avoid multiple gate camps.

Maybe if there were more null systems connected to high sec so you wouldn't have to spend an hour jumping and avoiding getting ganked just to get to your destination.

The gate system and no free warp is annoying as well. There are systems where you cannot get any intel about a gate because of nothing adjacent to warp to.
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#38 - 2012-11-01 22:07:10 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Actually, the main problem is that hisec people seem to be so anti-change that they react to anything with "OH MY GOD IF YOU NERF HISEC WE WILL ALL QUIT!!!!!!!"


Hisec is the most frequently changed and nerfed place in EVE, so your claim just doesn't line up with reality. The whimper of complaint when its done is nothing compared to the deluge of tears people in 0.0 can summon over every little change in 0.0. Many times there were planned nerfs to 0.0 which were backed out of because people in 0.0 whined so loudly. No change to hisec has ever been backed out of because of complaints. Who would you say is being pampered?

Lord Zim wrote:
I PVP in nullsec, but I make my isk in hisec, because the effort/reward ratio makes hisec worth doing over nullsec.


You best be trolling.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2012-11-01 22:08:06 UTC
Odd, I generally have no problems with gatecamps at all in lowsec when I travel to/from deklein. vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2012-11-01 22:31:46 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
Hisec is the most frequently changed and nerfed place in EVE, so your claim just doesn't line up with reality. The whimper of complaint when its done is nothing compared to the deluge of tears people in 0.0 can summon over every little change in 0.0. Many times there were planned nerfs to 0.0 which were backed out of because people in 0.0 whined so loudly. No change to hisec has ever been backed out of because of complaints. Who would you say is being pampered?

So you're saying hisec's been hit by tons of devastating nerfs/changes, while nullsec's been left completely alone?

Bane Necran wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
I PVP in nullsec, but I make my isk in hisec, because the effort/reward ratio makes hisec worth doing over nullsec.


You best be trolling.

Nope.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
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