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Hybrids, Missiles, or Projectiles?

Author
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#21 - 2012-10-31 22:15:33 UTC
nahjustwarpin wrote:
H'u wrote:

Heavy Electron Blaster I
Damage: 1.75x
Optimal: 2km (becomes 2.8km with ship bonus)
Falloff: 3km
Rate of Fire: 3s
Tracking: 0.12
Activation: 2.8Gj

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon I
Damage: 2.31x
Optimal: 1.8km
Falloff: 8.8km
Rate of Fire: 4.73s
Tracking: 0.12144
Activation: 0


3 things are wrong,
1) evepedia has some old info
3) you are comparing electrons to 220, while you should compare them to 180
4) rate of fire doesn't matter, damage/sec does, and electron is still better than 220 (electron=1.8375x/3s=0.6125d/s, 220mm=2.31x/4.72s=0.4894d/s)

One thing is wrong with what you said. 1>3>4.

Back to the OP though:
But yeah, if you're going to use 220's, you should compare to Ion blasters. If you're going to use 180's, compare to electrons. The Ions have more DPS than the 220's, and the optimal is decent. Even better when used in conjunction with null, though still nothing special.
You will be prone to kiting regardless of your range bonus, due to the inherently low range of blasters, but if you get them within scram range, and you have a web/scram boat, you'll usually be able to keep relatively close to your target, and if you're close and loaded with AM/void, you can murder the hell out of almost anything.

Also, remember that in the winter on Dec. 6th, I believe the day is, the Moa is getting its optimal bonus changed to a 5% damage per level bonus. This will make it more potent with Hybrids post patch.
H'u
#22 - 2012-11-01 16:11:08 UTC  |  Edited by: H'u
Goldensaver wrote:

But yeah, if you're going to use 220's, you should compare to Ion blasters. If you're going to use 180's, compare to electrons. The Ions have more DPS than the 220's, and the optimal is decent. Even better when used in conjunction with null, though still nothing special.
You will be prone to kiting regardless of your range bonus, due to the inherently low range of blasters, but if you get them within scram range, and you have a web/scram boat, you'll usually be able to keep relatively close to your target, and if you're close and loaded with AM/void, you can murder the hell out of almost anything.


OK thanks.

What I've decided to do is train up Projectiles and Hybrids to about the same level to test on Moa to see what I like more. Sometime next week I'll have it figured out which I prefer to use I suppose.

So this raises my next question - can anybody recommend a good PvE passive shield tank fit for a Moa? I tried looking in the sticky but all the fits posted there are from 2005/2006 which is really outdated. I have very minimal skills right now (most fitting skills to 2 or 3), working on getting them higher but I'd like some input on a good starting fit.

I'm planning to move into a Ferox eventually, but I'm going to start out with a Moa just so I can get used to combat and mission running/ratting before upgrading to it.
Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-11-01 17:34:22 UTC
H'u wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:

...


OK thanks.

What I've decided to do is train up Projectiles and Hybrids to about the same level to test on Moa to see what I like more. Sometime next week I'll have it figured out which I prefer to use I suppose.

So this raises my next question - can anybody recommend a good PvE passive shield tank fit for a Moa? I tried looking in the sticky but all the fits posted there are from 2005/2006 which is really outdated. I have very minimal skills right now (most fitting skills to 2 or 3), working on getting them higher but I'd like some input on a good starting fit.

I'm planning to move into a Ferox eventually, but I'm going to start out with a Moa just so I can get used to combat and mission running/ratting before upgrading to it.


You seem quite set on using projectiles.

Let me spell this out for you - if you want projectiles, you need to go minmatar. I'm sorry if you think that projectiles and caldari go well together, but you are really just inhibiting the projectiles, and not really helping the caldari part.

As for passive shield tank, you can ONLY do a passive shield tank on a drake/nighthawk/tenug/scorpion navy issue/rattlesnake/gila/ishtar

Now, what do all those ships have in common? They use missiles or drones, which don't use cap, don't worry about range, and can just sit there like the overly fat bricks that they are. Now, before you say "but I can just use projectiles on a ferox and passive shield tank it", no, no you can't. Not and be effective. Why? To actually hit things with guns, you need to close range, manage transversal, and put the enemy ship into the proper range to actually hit it. To passive shield tank, your cap is so minimal that you can't run an afterburner to actually do that, while also running an active hardener or two (and if you don't run an active hardener, you greatly diminish your tank).

So why can those other ships run a passive shield tank? Because you don't actually have to move with them. A drake/nighthawk/tengu just sits there with its bricks, and heavy missile range is long enough that they can eventually kill something with their anemic dps. The SNI is basically the same thing, but it uses cruise missiles instead of heavies (also, it does much better with an active tank than passive). The rattlesnake/gila/ishtar all use drones, and can sit still and let the drones do all the actual work for them, negating the need to actually get things in range.

So what is the range on heavy missiles? With maxed skills - around 80km. What is the range on autocannons (we'll just go ahead and use 425's here) 1.5km + 12km falloff. Please note the slight difference in range. This means that while a drake with heavy missiles doesn't really have to move (every NPC comes within 60km, the majority under 50, and everything sub battleship under about 30ish), the autocannon fit ship has to go out and chase the targets down. Without a prop mod, a ferox goes at 175m/s - note, some NPC cruiser ships move at 200m/s... which means that if they don't want you to close range, you won't. The most passive shield tank that you can get with a ferox (against serpentis/guristas, using just t1 rigs and t2 mods) is 941. While this is enough to tank most lvl 4's, your dps is maxed at 195, with a range of 1.5+12km, and an extra 100 or so from light drones. Moving at 175m/s, you are barely going to be able to finish missions. Putting an afterburner on though drastically reduces your tank (dropping it to 747) and making you non-cap stable. Attempting to get more dps or range reduces your tank even further, without really improving your ability to get to the target faster, and start applying dps. Lastly, that 195dps... yeah, that is only at 1.5km. At 13km, your dps is 100, and at 15km it is essentially 0.

So, you want to use guns and not missiles? You have to active tank. You have to manage your cap. You have to manage your range, your tank, your speed, transversal, etc. You have to be able to close range with your opponent, or keep them at range so you can hit them. Taking a ferox, sticking railguns, damage mods, and an active tank on it, you can get a 361dps tank against serpentis/guristas with 397dps at 31+20km using the following fit.

[Ferox, Brick]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Medium Shield Booster II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II

250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
[empty high slot]

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hobgoblin II x5

No, you don't have an afterburner, but you have the range to actually hit things, you are cap stable firing just your guns, and you can pulse your shield booster. That fit would see you through all lvl 2's, and most lvl 3's, as long as you refit according to what the mission requires. Do note though that even after the heavy missile nerf, a drake would still do it better.

Pvp is a whole different story, but you don't passive tank that either

-Arazel
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#24 - 2012-11-01 19:03:11 UTC
Arazel Chainfire wrote:
H'u wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:

...


OK thanks.

What I've decided to do is train up Projectiles and Hybrids to about the same level to test on Moa to see what I like more. Sometime next week I'll have it figured out which I prefer to use I suppose.

So this raises my next question - can anybody recommend a good PvE passive shield tank fit for a Moa? I tried looking in the sticky but all the fits posted there are from 2005/2006 which is really outdated. I have very minimal skills right now (most fitting skills to 2 or 3), working on getting them higher but I'd like some input on a good starting fit.

I'm planning to move into a Ferox eventually, but I'm going to start out with a Moa just so I can get used to combat and mission running/ratting before upgrading to it.


You seem quite set on using projectiles.

Let me spell this out for you - if you want projectiles, you need to go minmatar. I'm sorry if you think that projectiles and caldari go well together, but you are really just inhibiting the projectiles, and not really helping the caldari part.

*snip*

-Arazel



Quoted for truth. Well done post Azrael

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly

Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#25 - 2012-11-01 23:56:23 UTC
Prooooojectiles for the Win(matar).
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