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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#201 - 2012-11-02 22:38:32 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I have never, not once, ever been "treated poorly" because I'm a "carebear" in null.

I was even sponsored into GoonWaffe, knowing that I had no interested in pvp and just wanted to build and sell stuff.

Playing with people is playing with people, and YMMV. Not "everyone" is treated like a worthelss piece of **** beause they like to build and sell ****, by our corp.

FWIW, Goonswarm members' experience of null are not representative of null in general. Not been a member myself, but have heard stories of how living in null went, and they simply do not match -- particularly when inconsiderate tryhard leadership gets involved.
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
He's trying to twist me saying that more slots isn't enough, into me saying something I didn't even remotely say.

Perhaps, but more slots really isn't enough, whether you said it or not. It's really not the nullbears trying to take the whole arm upon being offered a finger, but rather just... null industry being downright tripe.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#202 - 2012-11-02 22:42:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:

Good point. But we won't know Blink


If only we had an area of space with no local and CCP ran the pvp loss rate of ships over a long span of time.

Good idea. What shall we call these spaces with no local?

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Krax As
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#203 - 2012-11-02 22:42:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Krax As
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:

I asked about the number of 0.0 indy slots as a question only yesterday to a fellow Goon.

"Will it fix your 0.0 indy problems and stop you whining" I asked.

"No" was the reply, "we also want manufacturing in the supermarket called highsec to be so expensive that people will come to my cornerstore and buy my stuff at extreme prices"...

I have not seen a response to my statement that "0.0 is in fact asking for state sponsored protectionism".

Slots apprently is not the problem, it's a problem (which I concede). Make what you will.

The problem is that, even discounting the inherent risks of living and manufacturing stuff in 0.0 (suppose you never get blown up or whatever), it is far less practical to do your industry there rather than hisec. Lack of slots is part of that, and probably one of the easiest to fix. The harder fixes are things like lack of resource flow crippling non-vertical industry operations (which handle everything from mining/research to final ship).



claiming bad resource flow as reason for null sec not being a viable option is , in my opinion, just lack of grasp on the game concept. every ressurce needed for every part of industry is in fact available in null. the only thing lacking is players working to get them. if corps and alliances would divert some of their energy and direction into establishing a local (aka null) ressoucre flow by aiding indy players with security of local systems and areas instead of crfusading all over new eden just because they are bored, ressources would be there in abundance.

that in fact might have other effects on eve wars and gameplay. the fact that you can get thousands of people from one edge of the galaxy to the other (clone jumps, jump freighters, titan bridges) might be one reason some consider pvp in null not pvp anymore but see it as monkey business. press the rightbuttons at the right time (when your FC tells you to) and you are now a elite player.

"i was there" should mean "i was there at the right time with the right bunch of people, thats why my KB rulez", nut thats another point and not main focus of my posts. sorry for ranting about it
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#204 - 2012-11-02 22:45:04 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

FWIW, Goonswarm members' experience of null are not representative of null in general. Not been a member myself, but have heard stories of how living in null went, and they simply do not match -- particularly when inconsiderate tryhard leadership gets involved.


The few alliances that treated industrialists like dirt have all imploded when put under preassure.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#205 - 2012-11-02 22:47:46 UTC
Krax As wrote:
claiming bad resource flow as reason for null sec not being a viable option is , in my opinion, just lack of grasp on the game concept. every ressurce needed for every part of industry is in fact available in null. the only thing lacking is players working to get them. if corps and alliances would divert some of their energy and direction into establishing a local (aka null) ressoucre flow by aiding indy players with security of local systems and areas instead of crfusading all over new eden just because they are bored, ressources would be there in abundance.

that in fact might have other effects on eve wars and gameplay. the fact that you can get thousands of people from one edge of the galaxy to the other (clone jumps, jump freighters, titan bridges) might be one reason some consider pvp in null not pvp anymore but see it as monkey business. press the rightbuttons at the right time (when your FC tells you to) and you are now a elite player.

"i was there" should mean "i was there at the right time with the right bunch of people, thats why my KB rulez", nut thats another point and not main focus of my posts. sorry for ranting about it

Highlighted the main problem. A lot of things in null would be better with more people living there... which is why so many narrow-minded people hack up "make hiseccers move to nullsec" schemes, thinking that will solve anything (it won't, really).

People who like blowing things up and blowing up do their PvP in nullsec.
People who like building stuff do their PvE in hisec.
People who like both... do their PvP in nullsec, and their PvE in hisec. <-- THIS is the problem (or at least, a big symptom of it). How to fix it? Beats me.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Krax As
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#206 - 2012-11-02 22:49:17 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

FWIW, Goonswarm members' experience of null are not representative of null in general. Not been a member myself, but have heard stories of how living in null went, and they simply do not match -- particularly when inconsiderate tryhard leadership gets involved.


The few alliances that treated industrialists like dirt have all imploded when put under preassure.



might also be that the same elitist-view that hampers noobs in going to null ("my pvp skills are not good enough") also hinders many enthusiastic and motivated indy players from goin there simply because some corps see them only as
-miners
-meatshields
-bait for roams

again, the risk vs. rewards is a concept that not only has to be established by rules -> CCP,
but also by the players themselves
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#207 - 2012-11-02 22:50:07 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:

Good idea. What shall we call these spaces with no local?


Well I was thinking sleeper space but that might give people the idea that there are nothing but bots out there so... I dunno maby Wormhole space? Yea that sounds good, given that you take wormholes to get there.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#208 - 2012-11-02 22:50:57 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

FWIW, Goonswarm members' experience of null are not representative of null in general. Not been a member myself, but have heard stories of how living in null went, and they simply do not match -- particularly when inconsiderate tryhard leadership gets involved.


The few alliances that treated industrialists like dirt have all imploded when put under preassure.

Not speaking of industrialists only. I have been called a "pathetic carebear" when I didn't show up to super-restrictive AHAC fleets, and have been told to train "real ships" and to stop being useless upon not being able to fly a high-skilled Guardian or T2-gunned battleship... 9 months into the game.

Also I have been in situations of "there is a CTA on; either get in fleet and show up, or log off". It's not very pleasant, and it's not something Goons go through.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Krax As
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2012-11-02 22:51:38 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Krax As wrote:
claiming bad resource flow as reason for null sec not being a viable option is , in my opinion, just lack of grasp on the game concept. every ressurce needed for every part of industry is in fact available in null. the only thing lacking is players working to get them. if corps and alliances would divert some of their energy and direction into establishing a local (aka null) ressoucre flow by aiding indy players with security of local systems and areas instead of crfusading all over new eden just because they are bored, ressources would be there in abundance.

that in fact might have other effects on eve wars and gameplay. the fact that you can get thousands of people from one edge of the galaxy to the other (clone jumps, jump freighters, titan bridges) might be one reason some consider pvp in null not pvp anymore but see it as monkey business. press the rightbuttons at the right time (when your FC tells you to) and you are now a elite player.

"i was there" should mean "i was there at the right time with the right bunch of people, thats why my KB rulez", nut thats another point and not main focus of my posts. sorry for ranting about it

Highlighted the main problem. A lot of things in null would be better with more people living there... which is why so many narrow-minded people hack up "make hiseccers move to nullsec" schemes, thinking that will solve anything (it won't, really).

People who like blowing things up and blowing up do their PvP in nullsec.
People who like building stuff do their PvE in hisec.
People who like both... do their PvP in nullsec, and their PvE in hisec. <-- THIS is the problem (or at least, a big symptom of it). How to fix it? Beats me.



exactly. pvp-nullers do their indy stuff with alts in high.
why is that so ? because even for them the risk does not merit the reward. they know the ins and outs in null yet they still decide to take part in the carebear dance. but of course incognito.. c´mon, everybody knows we all do it (well not me at the moment).. but that should not be the solution.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#210 - 2012-11-02 22:53:02 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

Not speaking of industrialists only. I have been called a "pathetic carebear" when I didn't show up to super-restrictive AHAC fleets, and have been told to train "real ships" and to stop being useless upon not being able to fly a high-skilled Guardian or T2-gunned battleship... 9 months into the game.

Also I have been in situations of "there is a CTA on; either get in fleet and show up, or log off". It's not very pleasant, and it's not something Goons go through.


Sounds like a terrible alliance TBH.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#211 - 2012-11-02 22:55:07 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

Not speaking of industrialists only. I have been called a "pathetic carebear" when I didn't show up to super-restrictive AHAC fleets, and have been told to train "real ships" and to stop being useless upon not being able to fly a high-skilled Guardian or T2-gunned battleship... 9 months into the game.

Also I have been in situations of "there is a CTA on; either get in fleet and show up, or log off". It's not very pleasant, and it's not something Goons go through.


Sounds like a terrible alliance TBH.

More common than you'd think. A lot of alliance leadership don't like it when they don't have supreme control over their members.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Krax As
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#212 - 2012-11-02 22:55:26 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

FWIW, Goonswarm members' experience of null are not representative of null in general. Not been a member myself, but have heard stories of how living in null went, and they simply do not match -- particularly when inconsiderate tryhard leadership gets involved.


The few alliances that treated industrialists like dirt have all imploded when put under preassure.

Not speaking of industrialists only. I have been called a "pathetic carebear" when I didn't show up to super-restrictive AHAC fleets, and have been told to train "real ships" and to stop being useless upon not being able to fly a high-skilled Guardian or T2-gunned battleship... 9 months into the game.

Also I have been in situations of "there is a CTA on; either get in fleet and show up, or log off". It's not very pleasant, and it's not something Goons go through.



experienced the same thing. that was one of the moments i thought "why the FU$% am i even paying for this **** ? to be treatd like dirt by peoples with no lives ??"

is that really how so many null alliances and corps work ? no wonder that no carebear / indy player ever even thinks about going there...
i say it again: risk vs. reward is a principle that has to be established by the players too. in a real sandbox game the players shouldnt wait for the dev´s to find the way for us. we should try to pave the way for ourselves.
Krax As
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#213 - 2012-11-02 22:57:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Krax As
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

Not speaking of industrialists only. I have been called a "pathetic carebear" when I didn't show up to super-restrictive AHAC fleets, and have been told to train "real ships" and to stop being useless upon not being able to fly a high-skilled Guardian or T2-gunned battleship... 9 months into the game.

Also I have been in situations of "there is a CTA on; either get in fleet and show up, or log off". It's not very pleasant, and it's not something Goons go through.


Sounds like a terrible alliance TBH.

More common than you'd think. A lot of alliance leadership don't like it when they don't have supreme control over their members.




and that trickles down to the corp CEO´s and directors sometimes. some try so freakin hard to please alliance heaadquarters that they feel entitled to act like mariah carey on a photoshoot.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#214 - 2012-11-02 23:02:22 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

More common than you'd think. A lot of alliance leadership don't like it when they don't have supreme control over their members.


In all of my years in 0.0 I have seen many such alliances and all of them crumbled.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#215 - 2012-11-03 00:08:52 UTC
We put the feeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrr into interfeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeee.


(lol that's so bad, i really like it xD)
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#216 - 2012-11-03 00:19:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


Touval Lysander wrote:

I asked about the number of 0.0 indy slots as a question only yesterday to a fellow Goon.

"Will it fix your 0.0 indy problems and stop you whining" I asked.

"No" was the reply, "we also want manufacturing in the supermarket called highsec to be so expensive that people will come to my cornerstore and buy my stuff at extreme prices"...

I have not seen a response to my statement that "0.0 is in fact asking for state sponsored protectionism".

Slots apprently is not the problem, it's a problem (which I concede). Make what you will.


Don't do that.

You're refering specifically to me, and that's not even close to what I said.


In otherwords, you're a ******* liar. And I really don't appreciate you taking something I said and twisting it to support your arguement.


You demanded that you must be able to sell low volume at higher prices and the only way you can do this is to have CCP prevent highsec from being able to sell more product at high volumes.

To create - QUOTE - margin.

As I said - QUOTE - "asking for state sponsored protectionism".

The question arose when I very specifically asked if slots would fix your problems. You answered NO with THAT response.

Where's the lie?

EDIT - relevant part underlined
Touval Lysander wrote:

CCP, tomorrow morning, in their infinite wisdom, cascade to your forum whines like they so obviously did for carebears and give you 10,000 x 0.0 station slots with no escalating penalty for use. The cost to use is set by alliance.


Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Numbers.
You don't sell in bulk at near production levels in null, you sell lower volume with higher margins. Those higher margins make it better to import.

The gap in margins needs to be closed some. The only way that will happen is if it costs more to produce in high sec.


Touval Lysander wrote:

You want people to be charged way above cost price at the supermarket so your corner store can gouge the customers for better margin. What you desire is state sponsored protectionism.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#217 - 2012-11-03 00:27:14 UTC
I talled to a miner here the other day.
An orca + 5 retreivers.

Asked him why he didn't go to null to mine, he then answered:"not worth it"
I asked if it was because the retreivers wouldn't survive, and he responded he could field 4 hulks, an orca and a rorqual, and had it all in null sec, but to much effort. Better to mine low ends im empire with alts.


THIS is the main problem of eve. High sec needs to be nerfed.
All hour rent in factories need to be upped to maybe, 2 000 pr hour minimum.(adjusted for faction standings)

Sales tax to be 3%.
VAT 2%

modify these for sec status.

And make it possible for corp and alliance members to use pos factories and research labs in a safe way
White Quake
Doomheim
#218 - 2012-11-03 01:17:00 UTC
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:
I talled to a miner here the other day.
An orca + 5 retreivers.

Asked him why he didn't go to null to mine, he then answered:"not worth it"
I asked if it was because the retreivers wouldn't survive, and he responded he could field 4 hulks, an orca and a rorqual, and had it all in null sec, but to much effort. Better to mine low ends im empire with alts.


THIS is the main problem of eve. High sec needs to be nerfed.
All hour rent in factories need to be upped to maybe, 2 000 pr hour minimum.(adjusted for faction standings)

Sales tax to be 3%.
VAT 2%

modify these for sec status.

And make it possible for corp and alliance members to use pos factories and research labs in a safe way


no, no and no? null sec for industry is to unsafe and the alliances dont protect the miners. so a sb comes in, fex them up, hes down 2 bill from 4 hulks and an orca and he says, sod it, back to empire

pvp alliances want people in null, do u protect the pve pilots? no? u ridicule them and wonder why they stay in empire

go figure....
Kaylyis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#219 - 2012-11-03 01:37:22 UTC
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:



THIS is the main problem of eve. High sec needs to be nerfed.


This continuously cited and unimaginative response is getting so old and tired. What's wrong with the idea of buffing nullsec and lowsec economic power in such a way that it gives major resource and manufacturing advantages to the ones willing to live in dangerous areas? Why not buff the resources and means to exploit them to entice warfare for precious resources? Moon harvesters were a decent idea until they put all the really rare **** in one place and then everyone just kinda sat down. But null needs more things worth fighting over. Making the resources less static ad new deposits are discovered and old ones dry up would help.

Quote:

And make it possible for corp and alliance members to use pos factories and research labs in a safe way


No. Hell no. Safe my ass. A POS is a risk as it should be. Don't go crying to nerf everyone else and then demand easy mode yourself.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#220 - 2012-11-03 01:48:16 UTC
Zenethalos wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Hating a common foe is a great way to unify people and get the herd moving in a singular direction. The pros create the foe, fuel the hate, and choose the direction.

The real question is, what's the direction? and who chose that direction?


Beat meh to it. Where is most of this hate generated? In 0.0. When is this hate generated? When the major players are at a lull and have no big war to fight. Who generates the hate? The people in charge? Why do they generate the hate? To keep their troops unified until the next big thing comes along. What if they don't generate hate and create a campaign against it? People get bored, infighting, people leave.

The soldiers need directive and entertainment. Hulkageddon, ice interdiction, invasion of WH space en mass are all tools to keep the front liners from becoming rebellious.

You hit it perfectly, I was watching a documentary on history and it reminded me all through history it's the same group of people looking for a fight and need a foe to villainize without one they become restless this is what has become of the large 0.0 alliance corps, a large stale loaf of bread who's only purpose now is to become marauders and tyrants, but one wonders, back in history this would be time for a hungry corp to move on the stale and ununited corps.