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Target painters and diminishing returns
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Kejii Maeda
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-10-30 22:54:55 UTC
Do target paining modules suffer from diminishing returns? What about TP-drones or a combination of ship modules and drones?
stoicfaux
#2 - 2012-10-30 22:56:59 UTC
Kejii Maeda wrote:
Do target paining modules suffer from diminishing returns? What about TP-drones or a combination of ship modules and drones?

Yes, yes, and yes.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#3 - 2012-10-30 22:57:21 UTC
Target painters do. I'm pretty sure drones don't.

Oh god.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#4 - 2012-10-31 01:11:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhilia Mann
Riot Girl wrote:
Target painters do. I'm pretty sure drones don't.


Sorry, but you're wrong. TP drones, painters, MWD blooms, shield extenders (Edit: not shield extenders; oops), and shield rigs are all in the same stack.
Kejii Maeda
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-10-31 01:41:42 UTC
So anything that adds to a sig radius has diminishing returns? For instance, my target painter would be less effective on a target that has three large shield extenders equipped and online?
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#6 - 2012-10-31 01:45:42 UTC
Kejii Maeda wrote:
So anything that adds to a sig radius has diminishing returns? For instance, my target painter would be less effective on a target that has three large shield extenders equipped and online?


Well, sort of. The largest effect is always undiminished (and this would normally be the painter or the MWD bloom). The painter would actually diminish the effect of the extenders though -- if that makes sense. Net, you'd see a slightly smaller increase when painting a ship that already had extenders than one without.
Kejii Maeda
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-10-31 01:50:46 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Kejii Maeda wrote:
So anything that adds to a sig radius has diminishing returns? For instance, my target painter would be less effective on a target that has three large shield extenders equipped and online?


Well, sort of. The largest effect is always undiminished (and this would normally be the painter or the MWD bloom). The painter would actually diminish the effect of the extenders though -- if that makes sense. Net, you'd see a slightly smaller increase when painting a ship that already had extenders than one without.


Ok. That makes sense. I was wondering if you could use heavy target painter drones and a target painter to increase the sig size by 100%. It sounds like it could be possible, just would take 5 drones and a TP module. At that point have to decide if it is worth it.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#8 - 2012-10-31 02:57:13 UTC
Kejii Maeda wrote:
I was wondering if you could use heavy target painter drones and a target painter to increase the sig size by 100%. It sounds like it could be possible, just would take 5 drones and a TP module. At that point have to decide if it is worth it.


Off hand calculations say a single unbonused RF painter and 5 large painter drones would put you at a 98.7% increase.
Dibblerette
Solitude-Industries
#9 - 2012-10-31 04:03:07 UTC
Does it matter at all that LSEs give a flat addition and everything else is multiplicative?
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#10 - 2012-10-31 04:04:20 UTC
Dibblerette wrote:
Does it matter at all that LSEs give a flat addition and everything else is multiplicative?


Erm. Yes. My bad. That means they aren't stacking penalized.
stoicfaux
#11 - 2012-10-31 04:07:13 UTC
Kejii Maeda wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Kejii Maeda wrote:
So anything that adds to a sig radius has diminishing returns? For instance, my target painter would be less effective on a target that has three large shield extenders equipped and online?


Well, sort of. The largest effect is always undiminished (and this would normally be the painter or the MWD bloom). The painter would actually diminish the effect of the extenders though -- if that makes sense. Net, you'd see a slightly smaller increase when painting a ship that already had extenders than one without.


Ok. That makes sense. I was wondering if you could use heavy target painter drones and a target painter to increase the sig size by 100%. It sounds like it could be possible, just would take 5 drones and a TP module. At that point have to decide if it is worth it.

198.5% according to EFT with skills at V. Drag and drop the drones and TP into the 'projected effects' window to see their effects on the target.

188.5% with 2xRF TPs. 231.5% with 3xRF TPs.

343% with a Golem and 5 PWNAGE TPs.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#12 - 2012-10-31 05:10:01 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Kejii Maeda wrote:
So anything that adds to a sig radius has diminishing returns? For instance, my target painter would be less effective on a target that has three large shield extenders equipped and online?


Well, sort of. The largest effect is always undiminished (and this would normally be the painter or the MWD bloom). The painter would actually diminish the effect of the extenders though -- if that makes sense. Net, you'd see a slightly smaller increase when painting a ship that already had extenders than one without.

Not exactly. There are no stacking penalties applied to MWD's, extenders, or shield rigs. Those will bloat your sig (and compound on top of each other) without even affecting your TP amount. That will be affected after the MWD, extenders, and such, and it will not suffer stacking penalties...

At least, I'm pretty sure it's that way.
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#13 - 2012-10-31 06:36:40 UTC
Kejii Maeda wrote:
Do target paining modules suffer from diminishing returns?


Did you look at the description? Modules that suffer from diminishing returns usually have this stated clearly in their description:

"Penalty: Using more than one type of this module or similar modules that affect the same attribute on the ship will be penalized. "
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#14 - 2012-10-31 06:45:42 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Sorry, but you're wrong.

You don't need to apologise for that.

Oh god.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#15 - 2012-10-31 07:40:56 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Not exactly. There are no stacking penalties applied to MWD's, extenders, or shield rigs. Those will bloat your sig (and compound on top of each other) without even affecting your TP amount. That will be affected after the MWD, extenders, and such, and it will not suffer stacking penalties...

At least, I'm pretty sure it's that way.


Not last I checked. We're talking a few years ago, but last I heard they still stacked just like any other modules that modify the same attribute.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-10-31 11:19:49 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Not exactly. There are no stacking penalties applied to MWD's, extenders, or shield rigs. Those will bloat your sig (and compound on top of each other) without even affecting your TP amount. That will be affected after the MWD, extenders, and such, and it will not suffer stacking penalties...

At least, I'm pretty sure it's that way.


Not last I checked. We're talking a few years ago, but last I heard they still stacked just like any other modules that modify the same attribute.


Yeah, it's a few years since I looked into it too, but I found that painter sig bloom stacked with MWD sig bloom too. No idea how shield rigs fit in, but it's trivial for someone online to test.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#17 - 2012-10-31 13:25:16 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Not exactly. There are no stacking penalties applied to MWD's, extenders, or shield rigs. Those will bloat your sig (and compound on top of each other) without even affecting your TP amount. That will be affected after the MWD, extenders, and such, and it will not suffer stacking penalties...

At least, I'm pretty sure it's that way.


Not last I checked. We're talking a few years ago, but last I heard they still stacked just like any other modules that modify the same attribute.


Yeah, it's a few years since I looked into it too, but I found that painter sig bloom stacked with MWD sig bloom too. No idea how shield rigs fit in, but it's trivial for someone online to test.

Huh.

Guess this means I'll have to test this when I get the chance.