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Carebear Entitlement: The Decadence of the Modern Era

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Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2012-11-01 03:53:33 UTC
So I'll ask again, because this is a question you seem to have avoided, Some Rando.

What is it that miners do to you that fills you with such a need to harass them?

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2012-11-01 03:56:19 UTC
also when will you stop beating your wife?
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#83 - 2012-11-01 03:57:59 UTC
Calling something "emergent" is like calling something "cool". Once you do it no longer is.
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2012-11-01 03:58:19 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
purchase a second account

My first and second account both have three character slots. vOv

Remiel Pollard wrote:
bumping is pointless, unproductive, and childish, and it seems the only result is annoying miners. Will it stop miners from doing what they do? No.

It is not at all pointless, it provides a convenient extortion scheme with an enforceable mechanic.

Remiel Pollard wrote:
PLEX bought on EVE store.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

CCP has no sense of humour.
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2012-11-01 04:01:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Some Rando
Remiel Pollard wrote:
So I'll ask again, because this is a question you seem to have avoided, Some Rando.

Damn dude, a guy can't sit on the couch with his wife and shitpost? it's ******* hard to bang out a detailed reply while quoting all your silly points on a smartphone (thank god it has a keyboard...)

E: I actually moved to the computer for this ****... Roll

Remiel Pollard wrote:
What is it that miners do to you that fills you with such a need to harass them?

I don't bump or harass miners. What's your issue with bumpers and gankers?

CCP has no sense of humour.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2012-11-01 04:07:14 UTC
Some Rando wrote:

It is not at all pointless, it provides a convenient extortion scheme with an enforceable mechanic.

THIS is the most intelligent point you've made - but while you argue this, then the miners can counter with such extortion needs to be regulated. Extortion in the real world is illegal, in EVE you've thought of a way to do it legally. So now, it needs to be countered. Most miners are not armed, so making bumping an activity that gives a miner kill rights would be an acceptable compromise IMO. I'm not a miner myself, but while I do dabble here and there, I don't actually care one way or the other what gets done about it.

But if this is the best reason why, then it is a criminal activity, and we have high-sec for a reason - for people to operate under high security. The same in-game laws should apply to all criminal activities. You want to extort people, fine, but don't expect you should be able to do so without consequences. I'm actually all for bumping the AFKers, I think if you're going to play a game then you need to actually be there playing it.

Some Rando wrote:

A fool and his money are soon parted.


They aren't fools, they're noobs - a fool is someone that has a lot to learn, but refuses to go to task learning it. A wise man knows he has much to learn, but is eager to learn it. There is a difference, and taking advantage of new players not knowing as much about the game as you is no distinction from bullying. But the wise noobs will, indeed, be separated from the foolish ones soon enough.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#87 - 2012-11-01 04:07:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Remiel Pollard wrote:

Shouldn't have to. Should a player pay more to play the game the way they are entitled to?

Don't need to have another account to have a gank alt, you have 3 character slots.

Quote:

Bumping AFK miners, or even present and active miners for a bit of a lol is all well and good. Persistently doing it over and over to the same person and demanding they pay is unproductive and childish, it's that simple. Sure, do what you want, you can play the game how you want just as they can, but I have to question the motivations. Why do you do it? Is it just because they "have it easy"?

Wow, cry much? For the lulz? Like I said, have your lulz, then get over it.

I've been ganked a few times - I had my cry over it, complained that it wasn't fair, then realised that EVE isn't fair - that's why people play it. You don't like that miners have it easy? That's your problem - you're entitled to mine just as they are. For the same reason you think miners should have gank alts, if you want to whinge about miners having it easy, then you go get yourself a mining alt and you can have it easy too.

I have a mining alt tyvm, the same alt is my bumping character, if I could bump my competition and mine at the same time with him I would.

It's not that we think miners have it easy, it's that the ones that are currently being targeted do very little aside from warp into the ice belt, target a chunk of ice, hit the f keys and walk away. Eve is about interaction with others, some of the ice miners don't interact with others so we force it upon them. BTW bolded the most important part of your post

Quote:
So what is it, exactly, that miners are doing that have everyone's panties in a twist? As far as I can tell, they're mining - OH NOES!! NOT MINING!!!! Not a COMPLETELY LEGAL, LEGITIMATE AND COMPLETELY NONINVASIVE GAME ACTIVITY!!!


The targeted miners are harvesting resources with minimal effort and then selling it straight to buy orders thus devaluing the price of ice. Eve is a PvP game, by it's very nature all activities are PvP, selling ice products on the market is PvP, bumping miners is PvP. People who "play the game" in a pretty much afk/automated style are contributing nothing of value except to flood the market with a surplus of overly cheap product.

Quote:
Why don't you go after the scammers that are robbing noobs of their hard-earned wealth. Why don't you go after people that make everyone else's lives miserable.... oh, wait... cuz that's what you're doing.


Noobs aren't worth scamming, they have nothing and depending on how old they are they are also a "protected species" and rightly so.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2012-11-01 04:12:46 UTC

Some Rando wrote:

I don't bump or harass miners. What's your issue with bumpers and gankers?


No issue, just weighing in on the debate now that I've learned a fair bit about it all. After reviewing James 315's blog and a fair few whiny posts about it all, from bumpers and miners alike, I realised that there are points to be made. I have no issue, for one thing, with bumpers and gankers - not personally, anyway, but any changes in game mechanics are going to affect everyone, including me, and the problem I do have is with people who expect that the game should be played a certain way.

I think, being a sandbox and all, that it should be played any way you like to play it, but there should be in-game consequences for making it a more miserable experience for other players. Hence why we have Crimewatch and difference security statuses etc - you want to play the game by making it harder on other people? Fine. Got no problem with that. As long as you face the consequences - as long as, while you're making it harder on someone else, it's being made harder for you, too. Whether it's by punitive action taken by the person you're making it harder for, or by in-game mechanics in place to take that action in lieu of a new or underskilled player being unable to take that action themselves.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2012-11-01 04:16:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
The targeted miners are harvesting resources with minimal effort and then selling it straight to buy orders thus devaluing the price of ice. Eve is a PvP game, by it's very nature all activities are PvP, selling ice products on the market is PvP, bumping miners is PvP. People who "play the game" in a pretty much afk/automated style are contributing nothing of value except to flood the market with a surplus of overly cheap product.


I agree with everything you said, except for this - EVE is NOT a PvP game - it has a PvP component, albeit a strong one, but there is no requirement in this game to engage in PvP. It is a sandbox - it is a "do what you like" game, and people are playing the market in a whole range of ways other than just altering the price of mins. But don't pretend for one minute that people doing PvP have some special veto say over what goes on in EVE, that is just epeening. On the other hand, I wholeheartedly agree about AFK miners - play the game however you like, but if you're not actually playing it at all, then why should you care?

I especially liked your "bump the competition" idea - GET THE ORE!! :D

EDIT: I do understand what you're saying about it being a PVP game, but if a player so chooses, one can play it exclusively by missioning, looting rats for all their hardware, building their own ships from corp-supplied BPOs (something that players CAN'T supply) etc. There is no reason why a player HAS to interact in any PvP activity, unless they are forced to react to PvP. But there is no guarantee that this will happen.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Treo 'Ssard
Hangar 55
#90 - 2012-11-01 04:24:17 UTC
Karrl Tian wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:
Still trying to figure out who the carebears are. Are they...

A) Hi-sec peeps that mine with a chance to be ganked or harassed where the gankers have consequences

or

B) Lo/Null-sec peeps that travel in large groups (blobs) killing with no reprecussion

They both whine equally so I am a bit confused.


Most Low/Null pvpers have highsec alts for money/logistics and a lot of highsec bears make pvp alts when they get bored, so essentially the whiners in EVE are like that guy from Fight Club running around trying to stop his split personality from blowing up buildings and castrating people.


I was listening to the movie's soundtrack when I read this...
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#91 - 2012-11-01 04:26:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Remiel Pollard wrote:


I agree with everything you said, except for this - EVE is NOT a PvP game - it has a PvP component, albeit a strong one, but there is no requirement in this game to engage in PvP. It is a sandbox - it is a "do what you like" game, and people are playing the market in a whole range of ways other than just altering the price of mins. But don't pretend for one minute that people doing PvP have some special veto say over what goes on in EVE, that is just epeening. On the other hand, I wholeheartedly agree about AFK miners - play the game however you like, but if you're not actually playing it at all, then why should you care?

I especially liked your "bump the competition" idea - GET THE ORE!! :D

EDIT: I do understand what you're saying about it being a PVP game, but if a player so chooses, one can play it exclusively by missioning, looting rats for all their hardware, building their own ships from corp-supplied BPOs (something that players CAN'T supply) etc. There is no reason why a player HAS to interact in any PvP activity, unless they are forced to react to PvP. But there is no guarantee that this will happen.


I think we can agree to disagree on that bit. As far as many, myself included, are concerned everything is PvP, if you mine a rock out you deprive another person of that resource, if you sell or reprocess your loot you deprive another person of the opportunity to sell you those minerals and so on. Many see Eve as an acronym for Everybody Vs Everybody.

I'm what many refer to as a carebear, I shoot at npcs, I indulge in market trading, I mine for minerals and produce stuff with them for other people to blow up. I'm also getting into the habit of exploding in an amusing fashion with my mining/annoying the competition alt, already been suicide ganked by an opportunist and looking forward to doing it to someone else, as well as exercising my killright before it expires.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2012-11-01 04:27:24 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
EVE is NOT a PvP game

Incorrect. There is a very short list of things you can do in EVE that do not affect other players in one way or another.

CCP has no sense of humour.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2012-11-01 04:31:44 UTC
Some Rando wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
EVE is NOT a PvP game

Incorrect. There is a very short list of things you can do in EVE that do not affect other players in one way or another.


And yet, they exist. I get what you're saying, both of you, I do, at it's core EVE is about interaction with real players, adding a strong human component making it a superior gaming experience than playing against simple AI. And I won't argue that EVE is not PVP in that sense, but in the sense that there is stuff to do that doesn't require interacting with other players, it can be argued that EVE is not exclusively PVP. As long as a PVE component exists in this game, then it is simply not exclusively PVP.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#94 - 2012-11-01 04:34:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
@ Remiel Pollard

Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated, eventually anyway Lol

Its good to see that you understand our point of view, many posters are so rabidly anti anything they don't agree with that its amusing to troll them.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2012-11-01 04:37:30 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
@ Remiel Pollard

Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated, eventually anyway Lol


I'm only six months into the game myself, and I've been told the learning curve is quite steep, but I learn quickly. And I'll make up my own mind about things based on the evidence available, not just fall into the "popular opinion" category as so often happens in games like this. Assimilation may be inevitable, but I'm going to make it difficult, and resistance is never futile - at the very least, it makes your enemies fight for it Blink

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#96 - 2012-11-01 04:38:59 UTC
Good attitude, I was like you once, it took them 3 years to get me assimilated Lol

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2012-11-01 04:39:49 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
And yet, they exist.

Aside from warping from gate to gate, looking at your avatar in the CQ, and what, docking and undocking? Yeah, I guess there are things you can do in EVE that don't affect other people.

Remiel Pollard wrote:
I get what you're saying

You don't, because you follow it up with this:

Remiel Pollard wrote:
but in the sense that there is stuff to do that doesn't require interacting with other players, it can be argued that EVE is not exclusively PVP. As long as a PVE component exists in this game, then it is simply not exclusively PVP.

Missioning and mining inject minerals, items, and ISK into the economy which is player-driven, meaning they are player versus player activities at the end of the day. Oh, you're not blowing someone's **** up? You're still affecting their savings with inflation.

CCP has no sense of humour.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2012-11-01 04:48:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Some Rando wrote:

Aside from warping from gate to gate, looking at your avatar in the CQ, and what, docking and undocking? Yeah, I guess there are things you can do in EVE that don't affect other people.

Missions, your own mining for minerals to use in your own manufacturing of BPOs, collecting loot off mission rats and mining mission sites, and additionally, reprocessing mission loot for rare mins - please, you aren't new to the game, don't pretend you are.

Some Rando wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I get what you're saying

You don't, because you follow it up with this:

Remiel Pollard wrote:
but in the sense that there is stuff to do that doesn't require interacting with other players, it can be argued that EVE is not exclusively PVP. As long as a PVE component exists in this game, then it is simply not exclusively PVP.

Missioning and mining inject minerals, items, and ISK into the economy which is player-driven, meaning they are player versus player activities at the end of the day. Oh, you're not blowing someone's **** up? You're still affecting their savings with inflation.


Only if the player chooses to put them in the economy, which he doesn't have to do. Any player can keep their takings all for themselves. I did for my first three months, I didn't use the marketplace at all. I was getting everything I needed from missioning. Then I joined a corp, and that changed. But that doesn't mean all players have to do that. A player has the option to play this game exclusively PVE. It makes it hard to be successful in anyway, but the option is there - hence, EVE is not exclusively PVE.

It really is that simple. BTW, I understand your point of view = I get what you're saying - I do get what you're saying, don't tell me I don't as if you know my mind and intentions, but you seem to be ignoring what I'm saying, ie the basic underlying facts.

EDIT: I'm sorry, I just looked into your employment history and you ARE actually new. Well, I hope you're here to learn something rather than pretend you already know it all.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2012-11-01 05:00:11 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Only if the player chooses to put them in the economy, which he doesn't have to do.

If you are mining then you are potentially depriving another player of those minerals (at least for the moment). And sure, you could live entirely off the tutorial stuff and run L2s and never talk to anyone. Why you'd want do to that I have no idea, but you could. People who play like that are very few and far between so we can simply ignore such edge cases. At some point, a player will want to use the market and at that point I would consider them fair game for the entire server.

CCP has no sense of humour.
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2012-11-01 05:04:53 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
EDIT: I'm sorry, I just looked into your employment history and you ARE actually new. Well, I hope you're here to learn something rather than pretend you already know it all.

I'm going to assume you're not some terrible troll and remind you, yet again, that there are three character slots on each account.

CCP has no sense of humour.