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The Hypocrisy of High Sec

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Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#441 - 2012-11-05 11:42:43 UTC
Geligdio Khan wrote:
Azrael Dinn wrote:
I'm kinda failing to see the point in all of this...

You want to nerf highsec so that people would come to lowsec or null to do industry (and something else?) there so that the majority of the playerbase would be in lowsec and null. Am I even close to right or?



Yeah pretty much, I think the regions should balanced so a third of players live in each one (or maybe if a region is 1/nth of the total number of systems then 1/nth of the total player should live there).

I think High Sec has way too many players at the moment and that shows it is too good.


Now this is my opinion and it based on my own feeling and thats it. But I do feel like this is something that the null alliances and pvpers have gotten them selfs into and if the case is that most industry players are in high sec it's their own fault. Also in addition there are the ones having alts in high sec and the major tradehubs are in high sec.

Also in my opinion alliances and null players could fix this problem on their own. There would be no need to change any game mechanics but attitudes towards industrialists. Current null mechanics actualy allow to do more effective production in null than production in high sec. Also you can't do all kinds of production in high sec.

This that you would move more ore to null would not provide any solutions to the matter it would just mean the ore would be in null and prices would go up which is usualy terrible thing for everything (except for the goons Twisted).

And if we think this the other way around getting prices to drop alot would be much better cause what industrialists hate is loosing expensive ships and cargo so if the overall losses would be more easily to repalced it would mean more time to have fun (blow stuff up) also.

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#442 - 2012-11-05 12:29:19 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Because of the game mecahnics high sec will always be the industrial source for the game. It is the only place where a Jita type trade center can exsist. This is basic to the game design. Nothing CCP can do will change that ever except to make null like high sec. And that will not happen.

If by "jita type trade center" you mean "a nullsec trade hub where everyone can dock and stock up", then yes, it's never going to happen. However, VFK and whatever system we're staging out of (UMI right now for example) is pretty well stocked for what's needed, and I think Test has something similar in one of their main systems.

These are only available to people with blue status, however, and I know there'll be some people from hisec whining about "wah this proves they don't want us there :( :( :(", which just shows that they don't understand the issues null normally faces, and as a direct result don't understand why such policies are in place (except in CVA space I presume vOv).
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
At the end of the day when all is said and done. If you play in null then you are confirming that null works good enough for you to be there. You could be in high sec. High sec could also be in null. If null is bad nobody would be there and that is not the case. Only a fool would handi cap themselves for no good reason. I assume that those in null are not fools.

This is getting dangerously close to a slippery slope argument, since there are multiple reasons one might want to be in null. I would love it if one of those reasons were "to do industry", but alas it is not (except for when making supercaps), it's just fleet fights. Does this mean null is fine? No. Absolutely not.

Azrael Dinn wrote:
Now this is my opinion and it based on my own feeling and thats it. But I do feel like this is something that the null alliances and pvpers have gotten them selfs into and if the case is that most industry players are in high sec it's their own fault. Also in addition there are the ones having alts in high sec and the major tradehubs are in high sec.

I guess I'm going to have to repeat, yet again, the age-old issue of "deklein hasn't even got enough manufacturing capacity to supply a full maelstrom fleet with T2 ammo", and "hisec has more manufacturing capacity in certain systems very close to jita than the entire deklein region has".

There are very good reasons why industry in nullsec are nonexistent outside of supercap manufacturing.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#443 - 2012-11-05 12:36:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Azrael Dinn
loed zim wrote:
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Now this is my opinion and it based on my own feeling and thats it. But I do feel like this is something that the null alliances and pvpers have gotten them selfs into and if the case is that most industry players are in high sec it's their own fault. Also in addition there are the ones having alts in high sec and the major tradehubs are in high sec.

I guess I'm going to have to repeat, yet again, the age-old issue of "deklein hasn't even got enough manufacturing capacity to supply a full maelstrom fleet with T2 ammo", and "hisec has more manufacturing capacity in certain systems very close to jita than the entire deklein region has".

There are very good reasons why industry in nullsec are nonexistent outside of supercap manufacturing.


Oh but you are so wrong on this one. Usualy it comes to the point that is it cost effective to do the jobs you are asking. Most of the time no. And it because all the isks goes to someone elses pocket in the end.

But if wanted I could set up manufacturing in a way that your feelt would not be missing ships or ammo. In the end it always comes down to the isks and I don't work for free with almost no reward and high risk of loosing everything.

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm
Moonlit Raid
Doomheim
#444 - 2012-11-05 12:39:05 UTC
Geligdio Khan wrote:
[quote=Azrael Dinn]
I think High Sec has way too many players at the moment and that shows it is too good.

Or that null is ****?

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#445 - 2012-11-05 12:41:41 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Oh but you are so wrong on this one. Usualy it comes to the point that is it cost effective to do the jobs you are asking. Most of the time no. And it because all the isks goes to someone elses pocket in the end.

But if wanted I could set up manufacturing in a way that your feelt would not be missing ships or ammo. In the end it always comes down to the isks and I don't work for free with almost no reward and high risk of loosing everything.

If you're going to mutter about POS-based manufacturing, then yeah, it may be technically possible, but it has severe convenience issues, and it can't compete on economics.

As Hammer said, players aren't fools.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Moonlit Raid
Doomheim
#446 - 2012-11-05 12:46:27 UTC
Why are we even arguing about this? If high sec is so good why are large alliances not running in high sec?

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#447 - 2012-11-05 12:53:00 UTC
Moonlit Raid wrote:
Why are we even arguing about this? If high sec is so good why are large alliances not running in high sec?

Because hisec sucks all the dicks on the way to the parking lot when it comes to PVP.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#448 - 2012-11-05 12:56:33 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Moonlit Raid wrote:
Why are we even arguing about this? If high sec is so good why are large alliances not running in high sec?

Because hisec sucks all the dicks on the way to the parking lot when it comes to PVP.


And if someone doesn't want to pvp what then?

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm
Ghazu
#449 - 2012-11-05 12:59:33 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Moonlit Raid wrote:
Why are we even arguing about this? If high sec is so good why are large alliances not running in high sec?

Because hisec sucks all the dicks on the way to the parking lot when it comes to PVP.


And if someone doesn't want to pvp what then?

They can be victims carrying phat lootz?

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#450 - 2012-11-05 13:02:50 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Moonlit Raid wrote:
Why are we even arguing about this? If high sec is so good why are large alliances not running in high sec?

Because hisec sucks all the dicks on the way to the parking lot when it comes to PVP.

And if someone doesn't want to pvp what then?

Then they wouldn't really be playing this game, since everything you do in eve is PVP. However, if you're talking about people who just don't want their ship to go boom, then it'd be in their interest to stay out of nullsec, since there's little to do in nullsec outside of PVP or making supercaps which is actually worth it. And it would behoove them to not run around in hisec in 20b+ freighters, I suppose.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Vanyr Andrard
VacuumTube
#451 - 2012-11-05 13:36:27 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Vanyr Andrard wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

At the end of the day when all is said and done. If you play in null then you are confirming that null works good enough for you to be there. You could be in high sec. High sec could also be in null. If null is bad nobody would be there and that is not the case. Only a fool would handi cap themselves for no good reason. I assume that those in null are not fools.


So, anyone who plays a single player game fps on anything but the easiest setting is a fool for handicapping themselves? Or do you agree "looking for a larger challenge" is a good reason to handicap yourself by setting a higher difficulty level on a single person fps? If you do, then that would also be a good reason for going to null, even if it is otherwise bad.


You get to define what your good reason is. I assume that if you have a good reason you are not a fool. In that case then you choose to play in null for your good reason which is good enough for you to be there. Then you do not need any more reasons to play in null.
One only needs more reasons when nobody is willing to play in null any more. That is the game balancing itself.



I agree...for a certain value of 'nobody'. I think we're pretty near to that value now, if not under.
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#452 - 2012-11-05 13:38:57 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Moonlit Raid wrote:
Why are we even arguing about this? If high sec is so good why are large alliances not running in high sec?

Because hisec sucks all the dicks on the way to the parking lot when it comes to PVP.

And if someone doesn't want to pvp what then?

Then they wouldn't really be playing this game, since everything you do in eve is PVP. However, if you're talking about people who just don't want their ship to go boom, then it'd be in their interest to stay out of nullsec, since there's little to do in nullsec outside of PVP or making supercaps which is actually worth it. And it would behoove them to not run around in hisec in 20b+ freighters, I suppose.


And this is why you and other likeminded pvpers fail in all atempts to get more people into null.

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm
Vanyr Andrard
VacuumTube
#453 - 2012-11-05 13:41:14 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Moonlit Raid wrote:
Why are we even arguing about this? If high sec is so good why are large alliances not running in high sec?

Because hisec sucks all the dicks on the way to the parking lot when it comes to PVP.

And if someone doesn't want to pvp what then?

Then they wouldn't really be playing this game, since everything you do in eve is PVP. However, if you're talking about people who just don't want their ship to go boom, then it'd be in their interest to stay out of nullsec, since there's little to do in nullsec outside of PVP or making supercaps which is actually worth it. And it would behoove them to not run around in hisec in 20b+ freighters, I suppose.


And this is why you and other likeminded pvpers fail in all atempts to get more people into null.


Where 'this' means 'being honest'? Yes, shame on them.
Dar Manic
Dirt Road Services
#454 - 2012-11-05 13:42:21 UTC
Moonlit Raid wrote:
Geligdio Khan wrote:
[quote=Azrael Dinn]
I think High Sec has way too many players at the moment and that shows it is too good.

Or that null is ****?


No, it means the pvp'ers can't get the easy kills atm. Force the 'carebears' into low/null sec and everything would be ok. Of course, no players would ever think of leaving if that forced migration were in place. ;)

I just don't understand null sec players.

**Please note: **Anytime I use the phrase PvP in a post, I'm talking about shooting/combat/killing things/blowing things up. Thank you.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#455 - 2012-11-05 13:44:35 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
And this is why you and other likeminded pvpers fail in all atempts to get more people into null.

Oh, I'm sorry.

*ahem* nullsec is the land of milk and honey. come to nullsec and we'll have 72 virgin goats ready for your edification, and nobody will ever do anything bad to you, and isk will literally fall into your account.

Is that better? It's wrong and a complete and utter lie, since CCP isn't providing any incentives whatsoever for those who do not want to partake in PVP regularly, but if you think lying about it will get more people into nullsec then I suppose that's what we'll have to do, instead of badgering CCP into making nullsec not suck all the dicks on the way to the parking lot.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Dar Manic
Dirt Road Services
#456 - 2012-11-05 13:45:11 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Moonlit Raid wrote:
Why are we even arguing about this? If high sec is so good why are large alliances not running in high sec?

Because hisec sucks all the dicks on the way to the parking lot when it comes to PVP.

And if someone doesn't want to pvp what then?

Then they wouldn't really be playing this game, since everything you do in eve is PVP. However, if you're talking about people who just don't want their ship to go boom, then it'd be in their interest to stay out of nullsec, since there's little to do in nullsec outside of PVP or making supercaps which is actually worth it. And it would behoove them to not run around in hisec in 20b+ freighters, I suppose.


Whoooooaaaaaaaa, wait just a minute. If everything in EVE is PVP, how can there be anything outside of PVP? Could it be you are using PVP in 2 different ways in the same paragraph? Could it be you are using PVP to mean one thing when you want EVE to be all PVP but using it the normal way (in the same paragraph even) later on?? ;)

I just don't understand null sec players.

**Please note: **Anytime I use the phrase PvP in a post, I'm talking about shooting/combat/killing things/blowing things up. Thank you.
Dar Manic
Dirt Road Services
#457 - 2012-11-05 13:46:15 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Azrael Dinn wrote:
And this is why you and other likeminded pvpers fail in all atempts to get more people into null.

Oh, I'm sorry.

*ahem* nullsec is the land of milk and honey. come to nullsec and we'll have 72 virgin goats ready for your edification, and nobody will ever do anything bad to you, and isk will literally fall into your account.

Is that better? It's wrong and a complete and utter lie, since CCP isn't providing any incentives whatsoever for those who do not want to partake in PVP regularly, but if you think lying about it will get more people into nullsec then I suppose that's what we'll have to do, instead of badgering CCP into making nullsec not suck all the dicks on the way to the parking lot.


But everything in EVE is PVP I thought?

I just don't understand null sec players.

**Please note: **Anytime I use the phrase PvP in a post, I'm talking about shooting/combat/killing things/blowing things up. Thank you.
Geligdio Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#458 - 2012-11-05 14:56:38 UTC


First thanks for all the input to the thread, I really appreciate it, all welcome.


I'm really not talking about making Null into a slaughter house where scared noob industrialists are forced to do laps for the amusement of the bittervets.

To quote from my own experience when I started doing PI I started in High, it worked well. Then I started scanning further afield when I heard there were better yields in Null.

I found some NPC null and moved my PI there, I snuck in and out in my iteron to collect the goods once a week. I got blown up occasionally, but as long as I was smart about it I was fine, in an Iteron mark 1, no cloak, cargo extenders. The yields were much better but the 32 jump round trip from my High Sec manufacturing base was too much to make it worth it.

So now I'm thinking of packing up and moving my inudstrial alt to deep null to live there. Yeah it will kill all my manufacturing but I'll get great PI and, hopefully, be able to make more money and participate in the greater game more deeply in an industrial way.


I think this is exactly how the game should be designed, you should start in High and get used to different play types and then Low and Null should lure you in with their much greater profits and greater sense of community and purpose.

I wish there was a well established industrial community in Null, so I could mine and manufacture and PI with them and really be part of something. But really the great industrial community is in High, I have to make the difficult choice of leaving all the good facilites and access to trade hubs to get into Null, which is lame and makes me not want to move.



Thanks
Dar Manic
Dirt Road Services
#459 - 2012-11-05 15:09:01 UTC
Geligdio Khan wrote:


I think this is exactly how the game should be designed, you should start in High and get used to different play types and then Low and Null should lure you in with their much greater profits and greater sense of community and purpose.


Because EVE is a sandbox, it is absolutely one avenue available to all players to move out of high sec. Every player has the option to make the move to any part of EVE they desire.

Since the game is already established, you are suggesting major changes to it. What about players that aren't interested in PVP (read sig)? They may be staying in high sec to minimize the amount of PVP they encounter because it is not the reason they play EVE. PVP is not the only reason people play EVE.


I just don't understand null sec players.

**Please note: **Anytime I use the phrase PvP in a post, I'm talking about shooting/combat/killing things/blowing things up. Thank you.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#460 - 2012-11-05 15:11:50 UTC
Increase the size of Nullsec to 10 times what it is now and then remove Jump Bridges. I guarantee you there will be fewer nullbears heading into Jita to buy supplies then.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821