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The Hypocrisy of High Sec

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Hecate Shaw
United Freemerchants Society
#181 - 2012-10-31 19:30:10 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Hecate Shaw wrote:
Can't help but think that everyone is overlooking a simple fact - the changes they are so eager to make to push whatever out to null and to make null better than high sec do not fit with the game setting! High sec is supposed to be civilized space, with the protections of government and law enforcement. There is NO REASON it should not be the best place for industry. I agreed with the mining buff for the same reason - I'm in civilized territory, why should I have to armor as if I was in the middle of a war zone?

Sure, push the bulk of mining more into the frontiers (if you want to really annoy those who enjoy mining) or better make belts into something you scan down. Say, pockets one quarter the size of current belts, four times as many, and they respawn in a new place in the same system when mined out (with a delay). Give the bots and afk miners a setback, while not really hurting those of us that actually sit at our computers. Easy to justify, too: the regular belts in highsec are becoming depleted, and miners are having to search more for remaining resources.

As far as manufacturing in null...yeah, it should be possible to create industrial upgrades that bring an outpost close to the level of high sec, but to exceed it? In the lawless wastes? Not so sure on that.

Because the gold rush happened on the east coast?

Or how about the fact that high sec has this group called concord, yet no one's paying them to protect them. In no country is freedom "free". Yet in high sec you don't pay anything for the safety you recieve, that is enforced by CONCORD.

Or are you trying to tell me that countries with the highest defense budget pays the least for that defense? The US begs to differ with you.
Yep, the gold rush should be in less settled territory - that is where you find ABC roids, the last time I looked. Maybe CCP should rebalance the amounts of the various minerals needed for manufacture, placing a bit more emphasis on the top end. Removing all resources from high sec isn't the answer, though; the iron and copper mines don't suddenly dry up because gold is found in the Yukon.

As far as CONCORD is concerned, there is a tax on all trade, and fees for other things that are supposed to be the capsuleer's tithe to CONCORD. If it would make you happy, I'm sure most high-sec dwellers would be more than happy to see a reasonable increase, or even separate new fees of some kind. I do think that all such fees and taxes should be absent from null, or imposed only by whoever holds sov.
White Quake
Doomheim
#182 - 2012-10-31 19:33:33 UTC
absolute rubbish

high sec players have a right to play how they want to

they pay to play

not pay to play your version of eve
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#183 - 2012-10-31 19:34:42 UTC
White Quake wrote:
absolute rubbish

high sec players have a right to play how they want to

they pay to play

not pay to play your version of eve


you're right, hisec players are the only ones paying to play this game

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
White Quake
Doomheim
#184 - 2012-10-31 19:34:43 UTC
Hecate Shaw wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Hecate Shaw wrote:
Can't help but think that everyone is overlooking a simple fact - the changes they are so eager to make to push whatever out to null and to make null better than high sec do not fit with the game setting! High sec is supposed to be civilized space, with the protections of government and law enforcement. There is NO REASON it should not be the best place for industry. I agreed with the mining buff for the same reason - I'm in civilized territory, why should I have to armor as if I was in the middle of a war zone?

Sure, push the bulk of mining more into the frontiers (if you want to really annoy those who enjoy mining) or better make belts into something you scan down. Say, pockets one quarter the size of current belts, four times as many, and they respawn in a new place in the same system when mined out (with a delay). Give the bots and afk miners a setback, while not really hurting those of us that actually sit at our computers. Easy to justify, too: the regular belts in highsec are becoming depleted, and miners are having to search more for remaining resources.

As far as manufacturing in null...yeah, it should be possible to create industrial upgrades that bring an outpost close to the level of high sec, but to exceed it? In the lawless wastes? Not so sure on that.

Because the gold rush happened on the east coast?

Or how about the fact that high sec has this group called concord, yet no one's paying them to protect them. In no country is freedom "free". Yet in high sec you don't pay anything for the safety you recieve, that is enforced by CONCORD.

Or are you trying to tell me that countries with the highest defense budget pays the least for that defense? The US begs to differ with you.
Yep, the gold rush should be in less settled territory - that is where you find ABC roids, the last time I looked. Maybe CCP should rebalance the amounts of the various minerals needed for manufacture, placing a bit more emphasis on the top end. Removing all resources from high sec isn't the answer, though; the iron and copper mines don't suddenly dry up because gold is found in the Yukon.

As far as CONCORD is concerned, there is a tax on all trade, and fees for other things that are supposed to be the capsuleer's tithe to CONCORD. If it would make you happy, I'm sure most high-sec dwellers would be more than happy to see a reasonable increase, or even separate new fees of some kind. I do think that all such fees and taxes should be absent from null, or imposed only by whoever holds sov.



The US disagrees?

This isnt real life, if u feel eve is part of your real life

log off
White Quake
Doomheim
#185 - 2012-10-31 19:35:18 UTC
Andski wrote:
White Quake wrote:
absolute rubbish

high sec players have a right to play how they want to

they pay to play

not pay to play your version of eve


you're right, hisec players are the only ones paying to play this game


dont twist words

high sec players dont demand pvpers mission run or mine

so thats a fail statement from the get go
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#186 - 2012-10-31 19:36:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
White Quake wrote:
absolute rubbish

high sec players have a right to play how they want to[


they pay to play

not really, since that's not what a sandbox is
i don't have a right to play with an invulnerable ship that's immune to concord and gank people as they undock from jita endlessly, even if I really really want to

you pay to access the EVE server, not for 'rights'

hth
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2012-10-31 19:37:12 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Also,

Hecate Shaw wrote:
Can't help but think that everyone is overlooking a simple fact - the changes they are so eager to make to push whatever out to null and to make null better than high sec do not fit with the game setting! High sec is supposed to be civilized space, with the protections of government and law enforcement. There is NO REASON it should not be the best place for industry.

Why would it be in the government and law enforcement's interest to let feared, immortal space demi-gods profoundly removed from the rest of humanity produce endless amounts of warships and weaponry in their space? "Come to Amarr Prime - Emperor's Station for a special deal on orbital bombardment modules and Tornadoes!". I mean, try to set up a military-grade bomb factory in your garage and see if the local government agrees to that. Really, it makes more sense if the private sector weapon factories were set up in the outbacks, unsupervised wastelands and criminal dens.

That analogy doesn't really work unless his local government considers him a feared, immortal demi-god, in which case they would likely handle him differently than a "normal" person setting up a bomb factory in his garage.

Additionally they would have to consider the risks of alienating or worse creating hostilities towards the population of space demi-gods out there if they were to increase restrictions further on empire activities of capsuleers. When other empires willingly supply them with manufacturing and industry infrastructure and market systems as well it wouldn't be beneficial to take anti-capsuleer measures. I'd imagine trade tax and fee revenue alone would easily entice any real world government to create all the necessary exceptions.
TharOkha
0asis Group
#188 - 2012-10-31 19:37:20 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

I dislike pitbulls. They're aggressive dogs that are notoriously dangerous and tempermental. I don't think anyone should be allowed to own one.

I'm not complaining; it's just my point of view.


well, what i actualy "wrote" was:

They're aggressive dogs that are notoriously dangerous and tempermental. But I know how to dodge them and avoid them. Also i understand why are those dog so hated by other ppl and why those ppl dont go where those dogs are.

See the difference? I dont want to "ban" pew-pewers. Im just saying that you shouldnt complain that some players dont want to go to unsecured areas if those "pitbulls" will attack them on sight.

(EDIT: Althought here i should emphasize that its their problem that they cannot avoid those pittbuls.- but thats another topic)

Quote:
for the record I love dogs, and thers's no such thing as bad dogs, just bad owners.


QFT Attention

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
White Quake
Doomheim
#189 - 2012-10-31 19:37:42 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
White Quake wrote:
absolute rubbish

high sec players have a right to play how they want to[


they pay to play

not really, since that's not what a sandbox is
i don't have a right to play with an invulnerable ship that's immune to concord and gank people as they undock from jita endlessly, even if I really really want to

you pay to access the EVE server, not for 'rights'

hth


absolute rubbish, high sec players dont get absolute secuirty i.e ganking

again dont twist words to suit your own argument
Hecate Shaw
United Freemerchants Society
#190 - 2012-10-31 19:38:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Hecate Shaw
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Also,

Hecate Shaw wrote:
Can't help but think that everyone is overlooking a simple fact - the changes they are so eager to make to push whatever out to null and to make null better than high sec do not fit with the game setting! High sec is supposed to be civilized space, with the protections of government and law enforcement. There is NO REASON it should not be the best place for industry.

Why would it be in the government and law enforcement's interest to let feared, immortal space demi-gods profoundly removed from the rest of humanity produce endless amounts of warships and weaponry in their space? "Come to Amarr Prime - Emperor's Station for a special deal on orbital bombardment modules and Tornadoes!". I mean, try to set up a military-grade bomb factory in your garage and see if the local government agrees to that. Really, it makes more sense if the private sector weapon factories were set up in the outbacks, unsupervised wastelands and criminal dens.
Because the 'feared, immortal space demi-gods' are most often working for them? General Dynamics works for the US government, and they seem to have no problem setting up bomb factories. Besides, there are SOME liberties taken to make a playable game, the idea is not to take the liberties too far. That is, if I'm not mistaken, why most people find real-world analogies suspect, is it not?

ETA - this was answered far more eloquently in post 187, above.
TharOkha
0asis Group
#191 - 2012-10-31 19:39:23 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
TharOkha wrote:

Again im not complaining. This is just my point of view of null sec players and their "gheto" mentality. Blink

The mentality is heavily reinforced by the hard limitations of null game mechanics. As in the inability to develop an area of nullsec economy beyond raw resource extraction.
If nullsec industry is inferior to simply importing, then contributing indirectly into the local nullsec economy is pointless for the local powers that run the area and the only contributions that genuinely matter are ones that help control access to 0.0 raw resources like high-ends, moon goo and rats. If running a NRDS system helped alliances, then CVA would be the lords of null. But it doesn't, so they don't.



BINGO... problem is with nullsec mechanic. not the hisec itself and their dwellers.Im saying this from the begining. Do not nerf hisec. Just rebalance null... i agree with this post.

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#192 - 2012-10-31 19:41:06 UTC
Hecate Shaw wrote:
Because the 'feared, immortal space demi-gods' are most often working for them? General Dynamics works for the US government, and they seem to have no problem setting up bomb factories. Besides, there are SOME liberties taken to make a playable game, the idea is not to take the liberties too far. That is, if I'm not mistaken, why most people find real-world analogies suspect, is it not?


yeah lemme just call up General Dynamics and buy an Abrams

oh wait what's that, I can't

also among those "liberties taken" is throwing "realism" out the window in favor of "balance"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
White Quake
Doomheim
#193 - 2012-10-31 19:41:14 UTC
TharOkha wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
TharOkha wrote:

Again im not complaining. This is just my point of view of null sec players and their "gheto" mentality. Blink

The mentality is heavily reinforced by the hard limitations of null game mechanics. As in the inability to develop an area of nullsec economy beyond raw resource extraction.
If nullsec industry is inferior to simply importing, then contributing indirectly into the local nullsec economy is pointless for the local powers that run the area and the only contributions that genuinely matter are ones that help control access to 0.0 raw resources like high-ends, moon goo and rats. If running a NRDS system helped alliances, then CVA would be the lords of null. But it doesn't, so they don't.



BINGO... problem is with nullsec mechanic. not the hisec itself and their dwellers. i agree with this post.


The issue is everyone blues each other and then runs out of targets, hostile gangs come in and get bobbed and dont come back. null sec screwed itself and blame high sec

stupid argument
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#194 - 2012-10-31 19:41:46 UTC
White Quake wrote:
high sec players dont demand pvpers mission run or mine

so thats a fail statement from the get go

"hurr I want eve online: trammel so I don't have to deal with other people who demands I should be gankable because I don't want to play that game durr"

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#195 - 2012-10-31 19:42:20 UTC
White Quake wrote:
The issue is everyone blues each other and then runs out of targets, hostile gangs come in and get bobbed and dont come back. null sec screwed itself and blame high sec

stupid argument


yeah we're blue to all of nullsec, including our best friends NCdot and -A-

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#196 - 2012-10-31 19:42:59 UTC
White Quake wrote:
absolute rubbish, high sec players dont get absolute secuirty i.e ganking

You'll be getting as close to it as you can without actually being disallowed once retribution hits, don't you worry.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
White Quake
Doomheim
#197 - 2012-10-31 19:43:10 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
White Quake wrote:
high sec players dont demand pvpers mission run or mine

so thats a fail statement from the get go

"hurr I want eve online: trammel so I don't have to deal with other people who demands I should be gankable because I don't want to play that game durr"


Absolute rubbish again

if you want to gank a mackinaw it should take an expensive ship, not a throwaway destroyer to cause billions in damages, eve is harsh, nothing is easy

ofc they asked for a buff

why should you have it easy?
Marvin Narville
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#198 - 2012-10-31 19:43:24 UTC
White Quake wrote:
Andski wrote:
White Quake wrote:
absolute rubbish

high sec players have a right to play how they want to

they pay to play

not pay to play your version of eve


you're right, hisec players are the only ones paying to play this game


dont twist words

high sec players dont demand pvpers mission run or mine

so thats a fail statement from the get go


I don't think its a matter of twisting words. I think its a matter of leveling playing fields. In other words, as it could be reasonably argued that every activity in this game is in some way related to PvP, one side should not have advantages via game mechanics or otherwise as regards said activity. When game mechanics are implemented which prevent one side from enjoying a style of play, they are in essence creating an unequal playing field. Mechanics and rules are required to prevent certain playstyles in High Sec, whereas those same rules are absent in null sec.

I don't think mechanics should prevent or penalize one style of play to begin with, as is the current case regarding pvp, ganking and so on in high sec. However, if we are to accept such mechanics, there should be balancing factors, concessions of sorts to those who are having said play style infringed upon. So if PvPers and gankers are having their chosen method of play infringed upon by hardcoded game mechanics, I think many are simply stating that this is intrinsically imbalanced, and some concession needs to be made to rectify it.
White Quake
Doomheim
#199 - 2012-10-31 19:43:51 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
White Quake wrote:
absolute rubbish, high sec players dont get absolute secuirty i.e ganking

You'll be getting as close to it as you can without actually being disallowed once retribution hits, don't you worry.


again silly troll comments because you cannot come up with an inteligent answer
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2012-10-31 19:44:52 UTC
White Quake wrote:
The issue is everyone blues each other and then runs out of targets, hostile gangs come in and get bobbed and dont come back. null sec screwed itself and blame high sec

This is absolute rubbish, the problem has nothing to do with "hurr blues in all directions" and everything to do with "hurr why should I go to nullsec there's no industrial capacity to utilize and durr why should I go to nullsec I can earn more or less the same running L4s in perfect safety and I can watch movies while doing so"

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat