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@CCP time to modify ice roids so they expire

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#21 - 2012-10-29 19:09:30 UTC
Azrin Stella Oerndotte wrote:
Wouldn't limiting ice belts just make it more lucrative for botters to ice mine and make it harder for regular players to cash in?
Just imagine ice belts being depleted a few hours after DT, not a good scenario. In my opinion making ice near-worthless is the best way to counter ice-botters, but thats me.


Making ice near worthless has much less impact on bots (the value of whose time is their Sub cost + electricity consumption) than it has on real people (who also have to feed themselves and such).


Ore belts are limited and they don't get depleted quickly at all. Plus, if CCP introduced deplete-able Ice belts, I'd hope they'd add Ice Grav sites as industry upgrades.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Dave stark
#22 - 2012-10-29 19:12:54 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Yup...scared.

So you can do it. You are just scared you might have to pay for your fun. Nothing fun is free, bucko.

Got it.

Mr Epeen Cool


So what costs do ice miners accept?

Chance of Ganking? Nope. (Or rather, insignificant.)
Requirement to be at the Computer? Nope.
Fixed cost to run? Nope.
Variable output? Nope.
Effort? Nope. (A dozen mouse clicks per hour is not effort.)

So, what do the ice miners have to pay for their fun?


you just implied ice mining was fun. that's your first mistake.
Kult Altol
The Safe Space
#23 - 2012-10-29 19:21:47 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Yup...scared.

So you can do it. You are just scared you might have to pay for your fun. Nothing fun is free, bucko.

Got it.

Mr Epeen Cool


So what costs do ice miners accept?

Chance of Ganking? Nope. (Or rather, insignificant.)
Requirement to be at the Computer? Nope.
Fixed cost to run? Nope.
Variable output? Nope.
Effort? Nope. (A dozen mouse clicks per hour is not effort.)

So, what do the ice miners have to pay for their fun?




Chance of Ganking? Extremely high
Requirement to be at the Computer? Constant vigilance .
Fixed cost to run? High start up, skill wise and ship.
Variable output? Perfected technology.
Effort? Its alot of effort for me, clicking a mouse is tough when you have no hands or feet.

[u]Can't wait untill when Eve online is Freemium.[/u] WiS only 10$, SP booster for one month 15$, DPS Boost 2$, EHP Boost 2$ Real money trading hub! Cosmeitic ship skins 15$ --> If you don't [u]pay **[/u]for a product, you ARE the [u]**product[/u].

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#24 - 2012-10-29 20:16:11 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Kult Altol wrote:
Chance of Ganking? Extremely high
Requirement to be at the Computer? Constant vigilance .
Fixed cost to run? High start up, skill wise and ship.
Variable output? Perfected technology.
Effort? Its alot of effort for me, clicking a mouse is tough when you have no hands or feet.


Nope. Stats below.
Nope. The Mackinaw lets you wander away for an hour at a time.
That's not a fixed cost to run. That's a capital investment.
So? The fixed output still removes variability as a possible source of risk.
Fair enough. Nose-Based Gaming needs a buff.


So, what significant risk do miners face?


Stats:
HAG 5 killed about 14,000 Exhumers (assume each cost 300m), for 3.9T ISK total between the start of May and Today. For argument's sake, let's shoehorn all those kills in before the buff (this has the effect of concentrating the risk) on Aug 28.

That's 14,000 kills in 119 days, or 117 kills per day (5 kills per hour).

Now, let's assume that there are an average of 500 miners in Exhumers mining in all of Highsec (given that I've seen over a hundred exhumers in one Ice belt before, I think that's well beyond conservative) at any given time. So, every hour, each miner has a 1% chance of getting ganked (on average, he'll get ganked once every hundred hours). Getting ganked costs him 300m ISK, so his risk exposure is about 3m ISK/hr.

With a more realistic 2500 Exhumers mining in an average hour (I still think this is low), that drops to 600k ISK/hr of risk.

And properly tanked ships simply were not ganked. I've yet to see a killmail showing a properly tanked (pre-buff) hulk getting ganked.


Dave stark wrote:
you just implied ice mining was fun. that's your first mistake.


Why would people play a game to do something they didn't enjoy?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-10-29 20:20:20 UTC
Ccp should not for anything until tech moons are fixed
Talus Veran
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2012-10-29 20:30:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Talus Veran
I would support Halving or Quartering Ice Size and Refining output respectively, Reducing Cycle time by the same, and Fuel block material requirement.

This would make Ice mining more engaging, and cause ice to deplete more quickly.

I have always thought that Ice Fields never depleting was odd.

Edit: I don't believe it should be easy to deplete, just not requiring 100 Ice Miners to pop 1 Ice Asteroid.

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Jaison Savrin
Brave Empire Inc.
Brave United
#27 - 2012-10-29 20:32:14 UTC
I have only mined ice (in high sec) on my miner like 2 or three times. However, when I did so local was lively and the conversation of all the folks chilling at the belt made it fun. So from a social standpoint I think the non-depleting ice belts are a good thing. From a game play standpoint I am pretty much meh on it. I don't mine as a living nor am I bothered by people who do. So, whatever.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#28 - 2012-10-29 20:37:25 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

Why would people play a game to do something they didn't enjoy?

Why are people concerned about people paying to play a game they don't enjoy?

What of it?

I care not for the "correctness" of either party tbh but these arguments ON BEHALF of other people are getting kind of tedious.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#29 - 2012-10-29 20:44:16 UTC
Azrin Stella Oerndotte wrote:
Wouldn't limiting ice belts just make it more lucrative for botters to ice mine and make it harder for regular players to cash in?
Just imagine ice belts being depleted a few hours after DT, not a good scenario. In my opinion making ice near-worthless is the best way to counter ice-botters, but thats me.


Making ice near-worthless is a great way to ensure that most ice harvesters are botters.

You can have depleting ice belts and put them in grav sites in order to prevent the "rocks are dead two hours after DT syndrome" that afflicts most of hisec.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#30 - 2012-10-29 20:57:08 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
....in order to prevent the "rocks are dead two hours after DT syndrome" that afflicts most of hisec.

In 3 years of mining, I have only come across this "syndrome" maybe once or twice. The number of roids that are not mined in highsec might surprise you. It's more that miners gather like moths to a flame instead of actually, you, know, looking.

eg: Derelik. Most of the system remains unmined most of the time. I suspect there are many more.

Perhaps making ice useable for something else might increase it's value rather than simply look for even more ways to nerf everything to make something work.

What could ice be used for?

Triple ice needs at a POS?
Engine cooling?
Explosives stabiliser in production of ammo?
Quafe Esky?
Snowballs?

There must be more?

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#31 - 2012-10-29 21:13:47 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
You can have depleting ice belts and put them in grav sites in order to prevent the "rocks are dead two hours after DT syndrome" that afflicts most of hisec a select few systems very close to trade hubs.

There you go. Much better.
Jason Xado
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-10-29 21:25:48 UTC
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
Jason Xado wrote:
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
And the playerbase is now powerless to do anything about itEvil




Why would we have to do anything about it? That security team thing they have for bots has an awesome algorithm for detecting these things....right???

Now, how do they detect prison inmate and sweat shop slaves being used for RMT rings?


Please do not confue multiboxing with botting. There is no evidence of botting in this screenshot.



I didn't say they were bots. I said they were slaves used in RMT rings to avoid bot detection OR bots.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/25/china-prisoners-internet-gaming-scam


Or there just some dude with a lot of hardware who just likes to mine Ice. Multiboxing is a great part of Eve Online.
Bobo Cindekela
Doomheim
#33 - 2012-10-29 22:20:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Bobo Cindekela
ganker tears best tears

honestly i dont care if they do deplete, it will just make ice cost and value similar to ore roid values

good luck fueling towers with a 1.2b monthly fuel bill vs the current 350m for a large

You are about to engage in an arguement with a forum alt,  this is your final warning.
Destru Kaneda
Arzad Police Department
#34 - 2012-10-29 22:22:49 UTC
Whoa, deja vu of a deja vu of a deja vu of a--- 0/10

I like it best when the beats are naked.
Dave stark
#35 - 2012-10-29 22:35:54 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


Dave stark wrote:
you just implied ice mining was fun. that's your first mistake.


Why would people play a game to do something they didn't enjoy?


you miss the key benefit of mining. the fact you can do it, afk, low risk, etc, is for those players who use it to fund fun times.
want to read a book or watch a film? why not earn isk while you do it so when you're done having your out of eve fun, you can use the isk to have some in eve fun.

that's why i mine, i can tab out and browse forums, read books, watch tv, etc while mining.

all games have a portion of it that isn't fun, but you have to do it. in eve, generally speaking, making isk is dull but you gotta do it to fund more interesting ventures. don't get me wrong, i don't think mining is bad enough to open a vein for, but it's hardly the most stimulating activity.
ACE McFACE
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#36 - 2012-10-29 22:47:44 UTC
A few smartbomb battleships + giant blob of miners = time and ISK well spent?

Now, more than ever, we need a dislike button.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#37 - 2012-10-30 00:26:17 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

Why would people play a game to do something they didn't enjoy?

Why are people concerned about people paying to play a game they don't enjoy?

What of it?

I care not for the "correctness" of either party tbh but these arguments ON BEHALF of other people are getting kind of tedious.


I don't care whether ice miners enjoy what they do. My point is that you cannot claim that the Ice Miner's lack of risk is balanced by their supposed lack of enjoyment.

This is a Multiplayer sandbox. You are free to do whatever you want to do. So is everyone else. Including "Screwing with what you want to do." Miners don't seem to understand the second part.

Nobody's saying mining should be eliminated, but miners are saying that people who mess with them (first it was canflippers, then it was suicide gankers, now it's bumpers) should have their options eliminated.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#38 - 2012-10-30 00:26:59 UTC
ACE McFACE wrote:
A few smartbomb battleships + giant blob of miners = time and ISK well spent?


= Error. Cannot activate Smartbomb in the presence of GSC.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#39 - 2012-10-30 00:30:24 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Dave stark wrote:
you just implied ice mining was fun. that's your first mistake.


Why would people play a game to do something they didn't enjoy?


you miss the key benefit of mining. the fact you can do it, afk, low risk, etc, is for those players who use it to fund fun times.
want to read a book or watch a film? why not earn isk while you do it so when you're done having your out of eve fun, you can use the isk to have some in eve fun.

that's why i mine, i can tab out and browse forums, read books, watch tv, etc while mining.

all games have a portion of it that isn't fun, but you have to do it. in eve, generally speaking, making isk is dull but you gotta do it to fund more interesting ventures. don't get me wrong, i don't think mining is bad enough to open a vein for, but it's hardly the most stimulating activity.


The implication of your post was that the risk-and-effort-free profit was balanced by the lack of it being fun.

Risk and Effort free profit can't be balanced by dullness. Effort free profit is fine, so long as it's risky. Risk free profit is fine, as long as it's high effort (mining in a noobship is risk free, but effort intensive). Why should miners have both?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-10-30 00:31:24 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
ACE McFACE wrote:
A few smartbomb battleships + giant blob of miners = time and ISK well spent?


= Error. Cannot activate Smartbomb in the presence of GSC.


Which really needs to be fixed. There was a thread on it a couple of weeks ago which went in to great detail about how ice miners are setting up shields of GSC's so they can happily mine away with their 10 accounts.

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