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Timeline doesn't make sense to me.

First post
Author
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2012-11-12 15:40:55 UTC
The idea was that the wormhole from earth carried colonials into the new galaxy to establish new civilisations, but the wormhole collapsed before those colonies could become self-sufficient. Without resources from earth, all the new colonies, now divided by lack of resources to reach one another, had to build themselves up virtually from scratch. Sure, you can know how to build the technology and how to make it work, but without the resources to do so, you're just as screwed as if you didn't know. Think of Back to the Future III when he goes back in time, the DeLorian gets a fuel leak, and petroleum (and the plutonium required for time travel) haven't been discovered or synthesized yet. They had to work on another means to get the DeLorean's technology to function, and it took time.

When you've got whole colonies to feed, priorities shift from getting back out into the galaxy to basic survival. Without supplies from earth, they would have been required to revert to basic hunting and foraging for food in the very beginning.

It would have taken a long time to reach a space-faring state again, and in that time, the various establishments of humanity, separated from one another for so long and having been through different experiences and different stages of development, would have developed with different ideals regarding how a civilisation should prosper. Hence the disparate state of various groups.

It's not all that far fetched, when you think about it. Apply a little basic anthropology and it's pretty easy to produce some logic, even if it isn't wholly required consider that, as has been stated, New Eden's lore is second to the mechanics and features of the game.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Anslo
Scope Works
#42 - 2012-11-12 16:16:59 UTC
But what about all the previously functioning star ships, stations, cities, etc. The Eve Gate explosion couldn't wipe out every single ship and station and city for a few light years, could it?

But when I think about it, if the ships broke or something like that, or a station's manufactory stops working...well, I guess then you're done. It would take a few years but yeah, I see your point now.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
#43 - 2012-11-13 11:49:37 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:

It's not all that far fetched, when you think about it. Apply a little basic anthropology and it's pretty easy to produce some logic, even if it isn't wholly required consider that, as has been stated, New Eden's lore is second to the mechanics and features of the game.


Oh, it really is far fetched.

It's called 'writing yourself out of a hole'...I mean, IF there were no resources, why did anyone bother coming to new eden, if there were no resources here to begin with. AND, if there are no resources, how is new eden supposed to be sooooo opotunistical today.

It's not important HOW we got here (from a cannon perspective) - what's important is what happens now. dontchageddit? CCP wrote the cannon as a launching point for the game, forgiving its plotholes and nonsensicalities.

The existence of this thread is evidence enough.

For more ramblings by me on this topic, please see the 'capsuleers and their crews' thread. In the future, you are likely to see me in threads like:

"Why is it so light in New Eden?"
"Why can my ship fly through a planet/sun?"
"Why do the planets not have orbits?"
"Why do pirates continually setup drug compunds in the same system only for them to be destroyed?"
"Why is it possible that 1 battleship can take down an entire level 4 agent mission?"
"Why is the backstory illogical?"
"Why are there multiple asteriod belts per moon/planet?"

The answers and future reasoning's I shall be giving are simply 'The lore was written to appease game design, not logic' - and I shall be printing t-shirts with this on them and handing them out to people at fanfest, along with hats, tie-pins, iPhone covers, pillows, sleeping bags and rubber dogshit; to play pranks with your mom, after she's finished doing the plumber.

Just write guys. Let CCP continue writing whatever they want, and try to not let it stifle your creativity too much - because you think about this too much and it'll melt your brain.

Just write.

This space for rent.

Telegram Sam
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2012-11-13 19:16:06 UTC
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
Maybe the EvE galaxy is to Earth as Australia is to the UK. A former penal colony for undesirables.

You mean fitness trainers, hairdressers, advertising account executives, and telephone sanitizers settled EVE? (Sorry, couldn't resist the Hitchhiker's Guide reference). Carry on.... Smile
Romvex
TURN LEFT
#45 - 2012-11-13 20:24:10 UTC
AlleyKat wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

It's not all that far fetched, when you think about it. Apply a little basic anthropology and it's pretty easy to produce some logic, even if it isn't wholly required consider that, as has been stated, New Eden's lore is second to the mechanics and features of the game.


Oh, it really is far fetched.

It's called 'writing yourself out of a hole'...I mean, IF there were no resources, why did anyone bother coming to new eden, if there were no resources here to begin with. AND, if there are no resources, how is new eden supposed to be sooooo opotunistical today.

It's not important HOW we got here (from a cannon perspective) - what's important is what happens now. dontchageddit? CCP wrote the cannon as a launching point for the game, forgiving its plotholes and nonsensicalities.

The existence of this thread is evidence enough.

For more ramblings by me on this topic, please see the 'capsuleers and their crews' thread. In the future, you are likely to see me in threads like:

"Why is it so light in New Eden?"
"Why can my ship fly through a planet/sun?"
"Why do the planets not have orbits?"
"Why do pirates continually setup drug compunds in the same system only for them to be destroyed?"
"Why is it possible that 1 battleship can take down an entire level 4 agent mission?"
"Why is the backstory illogical?"
"Why are there multiple asteriod belts per moon/planet?"

The answers and future reasoning's I shall be giving are simply 'The lore was written to appease game design, not logic' - and I shall be printing t-shirts with this on them and handing them out to people at fanfest, along with hats, tie-pins, iPhone covers, pillows, sleeping bags and rubber dogshit; to play pranks with your mom, after she's finished doing the plumber.

Just write guys. Let CCP continue writing whatever they want, and try to not let it stifle your creativity too much - because you think about this too much and it'll melt your brain.

Just write.

don't forget that our ships level out to a certain position when stopped, and we somehow have brakes to stop as well
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2012-11-17 15:00:03 UTC
AlleyKat wrote:
I agree.

But, I've often said the lore was written to appease game design mechanics, not logic.

AK


To be fair you say it on every single topic you happen to wander in. Have you ever considered that we may actually know, but still can enjoy a good story or lore without screaming 'OMG MADE UP' ?

As a game, EVE must face necessary game mechanics limitations that cannot be explained via lore. That doesn't stop all/most/some of us to enjoy finding reasonable explanations to configure all together an universe with some sense.

All this seems to me like going to cinema, then in the middle of the film point atthe screen and yell that they are lying to you.

tl;dr I'm quite tired of reading your post over and over again.

Turusk wrote:
Hey there,

I'm relatively new to Eve and I've been reading up on the lore. I think there are quite a few problems with the lore, like how the Amarr, Gallente and Caldari were conveniently able to unite their worlds under one state... it's pretty unthinkable for Earth.


Unthinkable for a species that is confined to a small planet. State-nations as the ones we have today would have been unthinkable when people could only horse ride this much for a day. And little realms would have been unthinkable when people barely knew the people in the next town... And so on.

The bigger the world, the bigger the smallest (yeah that's correct) unified entities will be.

Turusk wrote:


But the biggest plothole seems to me how after the Eve Gate collapsed, there was a dark age of about 8000 years, without space exploration. This does not make much sense to me... While many of the colonists were there, the understanding of advanced technology must have still been there


And it was: For the first 4 ancient races (specially the jove). It just turns out that we descend from other colonies which with the EVE gate collapse went back to pretty much stone age, but in the meantime other empires rose and fell.

Turusk wrote:

Given a fertile earth-like planet and this advanced technology, a bunch of educated engineers, chemists, doctors and experts from other fields, this would have put the technology level at most a few decades before current earth level, and a lot of it could still be reconstructed from partially understanding how technology works.


You are assuming that every colony had experts on all those things. Look at the expeditions in Antartida our days. Yeah, they are scientists, but pretty sure they barely have a doctor, a cook, and a bunch of biologists. What if a zombie apocalypse started rigth now? They wouldn't know to do ****, not without importing the correct materials, and not in an environement like that.

I don't get why, when it's said that there was a colony somewhere in EVE, everybody assumes automatically that it was like 10.000 guys, with professionals in every single area of human knowledge (I wonder why would somebody want to have a spaceship building expert in a planet that doesn't have a spaceship factory), more than enough food, and a warm and enjoyable environement.

We are talking about planets that, if very lucky, had less than 80 years of terraformation. Some of them surely were started the day previous to the EVE gate explosion. Anywhere they got stranded, it probably was a ****** hellhole with barely no oxygen, close to zero farmable terrain (but, who knows, a lot of yummy iron or gold), terrible cold or heat, and possibly killer native lifeforms everywhere.

AlleyKat wrote:


Nice try.

It didn't affect the jumpgates, 'mate.

AK


It destroyed the terran jumpgates (and pretty much any other form of tech). You're thinking about the jumpgates left behind by the jove when they retreated to their current space maybe.
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2012-11-17 15:02:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Qvar Dar'Zanar
Horatius Caul wrote:

What do you think is more valuable to a freezing and starving colony? A single functional spaceship, or the ample supply of heat and light and power that the ship's power core may offer the colony if the ship is stripped? Space travel is meaningless if the world is ending.
.


And that assuming that the generators didn't just kaboom/melted/stopped working.


Pottsey wrote:

That is not what the story says as the wormhole shut peacefully, there was no explosion. Has the background been changed again? A strange magnetic storm appear in every system with a jump gate. This was the catastrophic that caused all the problems as the colony’s which relayed on food and supplies from the well built colony’s suddenly got cut off.


How exactly do you take 'swift and devastating' and turn it into 'expected and peaceful'? 'can't even imagine it.

It understand that it went something like this:
1. They discover the wormhole.
2. Scientists say that it won't hold much.
3. It's decided to construct a gate, so even if the WH closes, the jump will still be possible.
4. The WH closes as expected... What wasn't expected is the massive EMP throught all the cluster, destroying all aviable tech in it's way.
5. The gate itself remains where it was, but unoperative due to the magnetic storms still sorrounding it since the wormhole exploded.

Romvex wrote:

don't forget that our ships level out to a certain position when stopped, and we somehow have brakes to stop as well


You guys seem furious against game mechanics? Certainly auto-leveling ships makes the game bearable. I wonder how does that make any other explaination about lore useless, or why do you care that much about it.
Borascus
#48 - 2012-11-17 15:15:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Borascus
It's not even that far fetched tbh.


Just caught a program about Anglo-Saxon gold.


The most recent hoard that was found was crafted between 400AD-800AD. The garnets came from as far apart as India, the Gold was from Rome and Byzantine (Constantinople / Istanbul) and the blue fragments adorning knife hilts etc came from Roman Mosaic Tiles.


The find of ~$1mil, was made across 400 years.... during the course of which there are no records - known as the Dark Ages.

((Wearing stuff like this although there is no mention of a double eclipse :P))
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
#49 - 2012-11-20 14:42:15 UTC
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:
It destroyed the terran jumpgates (and pretty much any other form of tech). You're thinking about the jumpgates left behind by the jove when they retreated to their current space maybe.

How fast was it traveling?

The Amarr homeworld is apparently less than 12 light years away from the gate...but more than 11...so more than a decade with which they did nothing? Assuming the wave traveled @ light speed, which it didn't.

An EMP surge/pulse isn't that difficult to counter ffs...and a society capable of space travel would make their entire ship design and all space vehicles with EMP surges and pulses in mind. Ever heard of a coronal mass ejection? Our own Sun here in our solar system gives off several of these everyday at max. You think people living in Iceland with access to the Aurora Borealis would know this...

Again, I find it hard - in fact - damn near ridiculous to think or even consider the knowledge of the faraday cage and fibre optics flew over the heads of everyone at ship design college, and was abandoned as part of the engineering principles taught in the future.

Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:
All this seems to me like going to cinema, then in the middle of the film point at the screen and yell that they are lying to you.

Argument by analogy?

Please...

This space for rent.

Borascus
#50 - 2012-11-20 16:53:39 UTC

Cosmic Extinction Level Event: The Gamma Ray Burster

According to current theory a Gamma Ray Burster pointing directly at a planet would strip it's atmosphere of ozone, wiping out most types of bacteria in the process.

Trace COSMOS and the Outer ring / surrounding locations of interest are too easily construed as a biproduct of some interstellar trigger.

There are about 5 possibilities that could account for the effects seen on the EVE Gate irises, in the Map descriptions.


How it affected the Timeline might be revealed some day.

From my point of view most of the topics I've commented in or brought up have represented how the fiction / lore / canon / tidbits read to me.
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2012-11-20 18:22:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Qvar Dar'Zanar
AlleyKat wrote:

How fast was it traveling?

The Amarr homeworld is apparently less than 12 light years away from the gate...but more than 11...so more than a decade with which they did nothing? Assuming the wave traveled @ light speed, which it didn't.


Before you can protect against anything, you need to know that it's coming towards you. They didn't, since any ship which got caugth by the wave got fried (so it could not travel further to inform), and they couldn't recive signals of it before it effectively got to them.

Edit: And that assuming that an event (a wormhole) capable of bending the laws of time and space can't... Well, bend the laws of time and space when it explodes. We are assuming it was an EMP because that's the only possibility we can think about.

AlleyKat wrote:

Argument by analogy?

Please...


Lol it's not an 'argument', I'm stating a feeling towards (or a relationship between) ways of thinking.
I'm not saying 'you're wrong because', I'm saying 'this looks to me as pointless as', which is true no matter if I'm rigth or wrong.
Tykari
The Observatory
#52 - 2012-11-20 23:29:30 UTC
How about a cascading event? The EVE gate wormhole goes nova and disrupts the artficial ones in the jumpgates in the New Eden system that translate the severity of the event to the next system where it then also affects the other local jumpgates that then translate it further. For those who played Mass Effect 3, think of the Crucible using the Mass Relays in the ending cinematics. (I know the jumpgates in EVE work in vastly different ways but still)

We know that the ancient gates recovered by the empires ranged from utterly destroyed, semi damaged and nearly fully intact, maybe the damage they incurred is correlated to the distance/ amount of jumps between each gate, and in those days there weren't all that many yet.

In this dark void we are like brilliant stars, holding within us both the creative and destructive power to bring a new dawn upon worlds or plunge them into eternal darkness.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
#53 - 2012-11-21 11:01:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Pottsey
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:

How exactly do you take 'swift and devastating' and turn it into 'expected and peaceful'? 'can't even imagine it.

It understand that it went something like this:
1. They discover the wormhole.
2. Scientists say that it won't hold much.
3. It's decided to construct a gate, so even if the WH closes, the jump will still be possible.
4. The WH closes as expected... What wasn't expected is the massive EMP throught all the cluster, destroying all aviable tech in it's way.
5. The gate itself remains where it was, but unoperative due to the magnetic storms still sorrounding it since the wormhole exploded.

You have it a little wrong well only step 4 the rest it all right. The EMP storm event is unrelated (*) to the wormhole shutting and is a different event that happened almost a century after the WH closed. The wormhole closed right around when the Scientists said and for decades everything was normal. So I stand by what I said and the wormhole closed as expected and peacefully.


*unrelated as far as we know.
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#54 - 2012-11-21 11:11:06 UTC
The wormhole would have collapsed naturally, but the EVE Gate was basically artificially propping it open. Then things went terribly wrong.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

@CCP_Eterne ※ @EVE_LiveEvents

Borascus
#55 - 2012-11-21 14:23:36 UTC
We need Morgan Freeman
Anslo
Scope Works
#56 - 2012-11-21 19:26:06 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
The wormhole would have collapsed naturally, but the EVE Gate was basically artificially propping it open. Then things went terribly wrong.


So are you blokes at CCP going to leave us hanging forever about the Eve Gate, etc, or will there be SOME kind of lore, even a scrap, a bone, a scrap of a scrap.....A MOLECULE.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2012-11-22 18:43:23 UTC
AlleyKat wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

It's not all that far fetched, when you think about it. Apply a little basic anthropology and it's pretty easy to produce some logic, even if it isn't wholly required consider that, as has been stated, New Eden's lore is second to the mechanics and features of the game.


Oh, it really is far fetched.

It's called 'writing yourself out of a hole'...I mean, IF there were no resources, why did anyone bother coming to new eden, if there were no resources here to begin with. AND, if there are no resources, how is new eden supposed to be sooooo opotunistical today.

It's not important HOW we got here (from a cannon perspective) - what's important is what happens now. dontchageddit? CCP wrote the cannon as a launching point for the game, forgiving its plotholes and nonsensicalities.

The existence of this thread is evidence enough.

For more ramblings by me on this topic, please see the 'capsuleers and their crews' thread. In the future, you are likely to see me in threads like:

"Why is it so light in New Eden?"
"Why can my ship fly through a planet/sun?"
"Why do the planets not have orbits?"
"Why do pirates continually setup drug compunds in the same system only for them to be destroyed?"
"Why is it possible that 1 battleship can take down an entire level 4 agent mission?"
"Why is the backstory illogical?"
"Why are there multiple asteriod belts per moon/planet?"

The answers and future reasoning's I shall be giving are simply 'The lore was written to appease game design, not logic' - and I shall be printing t-shirts with this on them and handing them out to people at fanfest, along with hats, tie-pins, iPhone covers, pillows, sleeping bags and rubber dogshit; to play pranks with your mom, after she's finished doing the plumber.

Just write guys. Let CCP continue writing whatever they want, and try to not let it stifle your creativity too much - because you think about this too much and it'll melt your brain.

Just write.


Fortunately, your cynicism is not a case against a good story, but it is a pretty good defence against poor comprehension, because it explains your ignorance based on your sheer desire for something to complain about - but you missed the part where I didn't say there were no resources in New Eden, but rather, the settlers would have been ill equipped to harvest them for some time.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2012-11-22 18:47:22 UTC
Anslo wrote:
But what about all the previously functioning star ships, stations, cities, etc. The Eve Gate explosion couldn't wipe out every single ship and station and city for a few light years, could it?

But when I think about it, if the ships broke or something like that, or a station's manufactory stops working...well, I guess then you're done. It would take a few years but yeah, I see your point now.


That depends on how well they were able to set themselves up, and what kind of technology they had to begin with - I'm seeing a lot of assumptions that there were any stations or cities at all, when it could have just as likely been basic settlements still establishing themselves with old technology. The ships wouldn't have to be broken, they just have to run out of the resources needed to run them, and without those resources from earth, new ones would have to be harvested in new eden to accomplish the task. That would take time. Over time, ships would stop travelling and the colonies would gradually forget one another existed.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Borascus
#59 - 2012-11-22 19:34:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Borascus
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Anslo wrote:
But what about all the previously functioning star ships, stations, cities, etc. The Eve Gate explosion couldn't wipe out every single ship and station and city for a few light years, could it?

But when I think about it, if the ships broke or something like that, or a station's manufactory stops working...well, I guess then you're done. It would take a few years but yeah, I see your point now.


That depends on how well they were able to set themselves up, and what kind of technology they had to begin with - I'm seeing a lot of assumptions that there were any stations or cities at all, when it could have just as likely been basic settlements still establishing themselves with old technology. The ships wouldn't have to be broken, they just have to run out of the resources needed to run them, and without those resources from earth, new ones would have to be harvested in new eden to accomplish the task. That would take time. Over time, ships would stop travelling and the colonies would gradually forget one another existed.



Lightbulbs - It doesn't matter how many people are needed if there are no bulbs left.
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
#60 - 2012-11-22 20:26:56 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:

Fortunately, your cynicism is not a case against a good story, but it is a pretty good defence against poor comprehension, because it explains your ignorance based on your sheer desire for something to complain about - but you missed the part where I didn't say there were no resources in New Eden, but rather, the settlers would have been ill equipped to harvest them for some time.


That's assumption, not extrapolation.

This space for rent.