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How to make Frigates more usefull against capital blobs
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Temuken Radzu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-10-28 14:44:44 UTC
For a while now i have been bothered by the fact that frigates are rarely used in big capital fights.
Most of the time there are ten times more captials then frigates! The few frigates that are actualty be used are most of the time stealth bombers. Destroyers have even less use in big fights
My idea is to make Capitals and Supers far more vulnerable to frigates, forcing to use destroyers and cruisers to deal with it, closing the circle
Maybe this has been mentioned before, the idea is to have all capitals have subsystems that can be targeted and destroyed only by frigates.

Things like:
-Engines, making the capital unable to jump or warp even without using scramblers or bubbles.
-Weapons, other high slot items, obviosly rendering capital spider tanking useless
-Repair systems/ hardeners, crippling the ships tank

Of course this could be countert by the capitals by using nanite paste, but that won't last forever. and repair paste should not repair destroyed subsystems
Thus another counter should be introduced: in the form of the upcoming support frigate.
Support frigates should be the only other way other then repair paste to repair subsystems, forcing attackers also to use destroyers.
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#2 - 2012-10-28 15:14:24 UTC
I know near nothing about capital warfare, but that sounds awesome, I also really like your idea with the logi frigates which would mean an entire mini battle while the big guys are doing their thing that could actually sway the battle (also by forcing other subcaps to deal with the frigs)

Very nice, I approve.
Temuken Radzu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-10-28 16:37:30 UTC
This will also mean that destroyers also will become more viable in big battles, simply because you need them
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2012-10-28 16:39:29 UTC
Temuken Radzu wrote:
This will also mean that destroyers also will become more viable in big battles, simply because you need them



And a hurricane cannot do the job better because...?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-10-28 16:55:30 UTC
hi, frigates can tackle capitals

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Temuken Radzu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-10-28 17:11:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Temuken Radzu
Danika Princip wrote:
Temuken Radzu wrote:
This will also mean that destroyers also will become more viable in big battles, simply because you need them



And a hurricane cannot do the job better because...?


They will be destroyed by battleships, and arnt destroyers specialized to fight frigates?
Plus read the hurricane nerf coming soon: Hurricane nerf
Luc Chastot
#7 - 2012-10-28 17:53:36 UTC
It has been mentioned before. And it is a good idea.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

usrevenge
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-10-28 17:55:36 UTC
subsystems have been mentioned many many times before
the problem is-
When can you shoot them?
after shield? what about armor tankers?
after armor? what about hull tank? also once in hull your probably going to die anyway
the only thing this would remotely be useful on is against titans, everything else has too little ehp to be worth targeting different systems.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#9 - 2012-10-28 18:25:20 UTC
Why.. Should a tiny frigate be effective against a gigantic mammoth titan?

It doesn't really make sense..

Try shooting at a tank with a pistol, it doesn't matter where you aim..

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

zus
TxivYawg
#10 - 2012-10-28 19:59:37 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Why.. Should a tiny frigate be effective against a gigantic mammoth titan?

It doesn't really make sense..

Try shooting at a tank with a pistol, it doesn't matter where you aim..


aim inside the gun and heat the projectile Twisted
Temuken Radzu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-10-28 20:12:12 UTC
usrevenge wrote:
subsystems have been mentioned many many times before
the problem is-
When can you shoot them?
after shield? what about armor tankers?
after armor? what about hull tank? also once in hull your probably going to die anyway
the only thing this would remotely be useful on is against titans, everything else has too little ehp to be worth targeting different systems.


If you worry about such little details you could also ask yourself how a can gun fire from inside a shield...
Lavitakus Bromier
WTF Bunnies
#12 - 2012-10-28 20:20:36 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Why.. Should a tiny frigate be effective against a gigantic mammoth titan?

It doesn't really make sense..

Try shooting at a tank with a pistol, it doesn't matter where you aim..


Just open the hatch and shoot the driver.3 times in the head. Or drop a grenade.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-10-29 00:29:04 UTC
zus wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Why.. Should a tiny frigate be effective against a gigantic mammoth titan?

It doesn't really make sense..

Try shooting at a tank with a pistol, it doesn't matter where you aim..


aim inside the gun and heat the projectile Twisted


You shot, the bullet hit the tanks bullet making it fire, and since you can only aim inside the gun when you are the target... I think you will have a bad day.... ( Maybe in the old days you could harm someone inside that would be feeding the gun, but now, you can't barely scratch the feeding mechanism....

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-10-29 07:38:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Temuken Radzu wrote:
This will also mean that destroyers also will become more viable in big battles, simply because you need them



fit bubble launchers to the t2 version and there ya go.
The death of a titan can begin with simple little blue sphere of fun from a t2 dessie.



Rest of this stuff, frigs have there place. Anti bomber detail, on the spot warp to's for the big ships, scouts if titan bridges not an option, etc.


Frigate use at blob level sadly breaks down to alliance leadership preference. They could be useful...if the powers that be deem it so. But ....it usually breaks down to fleet numbers most itmes. BC and higher to fill up those fleet slots. maybe t2/t3 cruisers for logi, hics and boosters. And dictors ofc.

And well it can also break down to if node will allow running them well. Not sure how good the net code these days is tbh...but in the old days 1.5 years ago I had issues driving a bs or drake effectively if lag monster hit hard. All the tricks to break mod cycles that won't die...lots of practice at them. And this jsut turning off mods, not even real flying. Precision fly a frigate in this mess....no way in hell. Now if got better, might work. If goons last event in jita any sign though....when lag monster bites, it bites hard still as I saw.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#15 - 2012-10-29 11:19:07 UTC
One way to up frigates would be to make Fleet caps based on 'Slots' rather than just ship count.
Size at oh, BC's or BS's currently.
Frigate 1.
Destroyer 2
Cruiser 3
BC 4
Etc. So you can have 1 BC or 4 frigates. Now that BC is going to probably have more raw firepower, and tank. But those four frigates add versatility instead.

Make the 'slots' add up so you can have somewhere around the same number of BC's or BS in a fleet as you currently can, and all of a sudden those cap blobs actually are using several entire fleets to do so if they do. And co-ordinating them gets that bit harder.
Temuken Radzu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-10-29 22:51:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Temuken Radzu
Zan Shiro wrote:


fit bubble launchers to the t2 version and there ya go.
The death of a titan can begin with simple little blue sphere of fun from a t2 dessie.


What i want is to make a large group of frigates extremely dangerous for a group of capitals, When frigs are able to destroy your remote reps, and propulsion, you realy need something to counter them in the form of destroyers or cruisers making them also more appealing in battle. Maybe this could even make bubbles less needed against capitals. I never liked them, they look like huge soap bubbles in space Ugh

Quote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Why.. Should a tiny frigate be effective against a gigantic mammoth titan?

It doesn't really make sense..

Try shooting at a tank with a pistol, it doesn't matter where you aim..


The purpose of the frigates isnt destroying the capital, it is disabeling them. You still need the big guns to finish him off.

Quote:
Zan Shiro wrote:
Frigate use at blob level sadly breaks down to alliance leadership preference. They could be useful...if the powers that be deem it so. But ....it usually breaks down to fleet numbers most itmes. BC and higher to fill up those fleet slots. maybe t2/t3 cruisers for logi, hics and boosters. And dictors ofc.

And well it can also break down to if node will allow running them well. Not sure how good the net code these days is tbh...but in the old days 1.5 years ago I had issues driving a bs or drake effectively if lag monster hit hard. All the tricks to break mod cycles that won't die...lots of practice at them. And this jsut turning off mods, not even real flying. Precision fly a frigate in this mess....no way in hell. Now if got better, might work. If goons last event in jita any sign though....when lag monster bites, it bites hard still as I saw.


The armount of lag depends on the armount of players available in the fleet fight. So instead of only capitals or battleships, the players will also make choice of stepping in a frigate or destroyer.
It is more to make fights more spread, with a lot of frigates, and far less capitals. More like what you see in movies and the eve trailers.
Kuro Bon
Test Corp 123
#17 - 2012-10-30 04:12:48 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Try shooting at a tank with a pistol, it doesn't matter where you aim..


Tanks are countered by infantry, not with pistols, but with grenades. Infantry don't show up on radar, are small and numberous, and move fast.. which is why tanks generally don't spent their time shooting at moving infantry. It's the job of the tank-support-infantry to keep grenade infantry away from the tanks.

I think that is the type of interaction the OP is hoping for.

Protip: 100M ISK per hour is about $3US an hour.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-10-30 04:17:25 UTC
Temuken Radzu wrote:
usrevenge wrote:
subsystems have been mentioned many many times before
the problem is-
When can you shoot them?
after shield? what about armor tankers?
after armor? what about hull tank? also once in hull your probably going to die anyway
the only thing this would remotely be useful on is against titans, everything else has too little ehp to be worth targeting different systems.


If you worry about such little details you could also ask yourself how a can gun fire from inside a shield...

polarized ammo? if the weapon is magnetically charged enough for even the briefest of moments, it could harmlessly pass through an energy-based shield, and considering electromagnetic fields are wildly ridiculous to maintain without a power-source, it loses the magnetic field after leaving the barrel/shield, and continues to hit the enemy shield as if it had never been charged.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#19 - 2012-10-30 05:27:51 UTC
Frigates should be nerfed vs Capitals... not boosted...

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-10-30 06:17:09 UTC
Obviously capital ships require small exposed thermal exhaust ports that lead directly to the main reactor. They could be ray shielded, and therefore only vulnerable to proton torpedoes in order to make them balanced.
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