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Star Jump Drive
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Finn McCaan
1 man and his dog
#41 - 2012-11-22 10:34:12 UTC
I really like this idea.

If the drive increased signature radius vastly during spool up and for a similar length of time after the jump it would be far more interesting than the existing Stargate travel mechanic.

Because of the cap drain you couldn't warp away immediately at either end and the increased signature penalty allows you to be scanned down more easily. Rather than fairly lazy gate camps pirates might have to work a bit for the kills (although it would probably be a more satisfying experience).

To be perfectly honest I'd happily see this as an inbuilt ability to all T2/T3 ships... although that's a very personal opinion - which I'm sure many would disagree with.

I agree with one of the previous posters that Titans should have better things to do than ferrying fleets around.


How would this handle fleet jumps (on the assumption that everyone doesn't jump to the same point around the star - as that'd be replacing one camp spot with another)? Or would the fleet be scattered on jumping in as that might help defend against blobs of sub-caps instantly appearing in a system and running riot (delays it a bit).

Might it be an idea to leave a 'rip' in the location that you jumped from/to (decays in a time based on the length of jump*mass of ship) - allows people to follow you (they can see where you've gone/come from + approximate mass of your ship).
100km jump radius from fixed structures (maybe have the traveller 10,000 km limit from planets/stars) - so people don't just un-dock and spool the jump?

Would you consider the equivalent of a cyno jammer that effects this drive? Either blocking it completely (for a high cost) or making it harder (requires longer spool time/more fuel or whatever). Would Hub systems (1 block the jump effect (Jita might not appreciate the potential of thousands of people suddenly arriving instantly).

Might a travel time, governed by hull warp speed, (rather than an instant jump) be a good idea? If a rip forms at your destination (with its scalability rising rapidly as you approach) then this could be very interesting in terms of offence / defence.
For example a pirate might see a transport jump to a low sec system, jump ahead (as the pirate ship has a faster warp) and scan down the transports incoming rip ?
Elite esque.
Morgan North
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#42 - 2012-11-22 10:39:21 UTC
Here's an idea...

Make it's activation open a portal to a new system, called "subspace,slipspace, warp, whatever" and make it travel from point A to B, 100 km. Proceed to connect all generated ortals to that system. Watch as true piracy becomes rampan. Oh and disallow warping of any sort while in that system.

With some care, a subnetwork could be done, with no stations, nothing.

Just a bunch (say 20), of travelling systems that could be filled with pirates at the arrival/exit points.
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2012-11-22 19:04:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimeo Khamsi
I support this idea, with a major caveat: You should only be able to jump to suns immediately next to the system you are in now, as determined by the existing patterns of star gates.

So no jumping 6 systems over or taking a shortcut between far flung arms of the galaxy.

This restrictions would make it essentially nothing at all like a jump drive, but instead merely a module-requiring alternative to star gates. The advantage being that you have two parallel routes to get anywhere. Yet both take the same amount of time, and both have predictable choke points where people can camp you.



That solves any issues with people whinign about their jump drive ships being undermined, because it would not be able to do the same things as jump drives at all. And it's clearly balanced, because it's no faster than stargates AND it requires module fitting and fuel, while stargates require neither.

Yet it would still be adding a good amount of strategic options to the game and a little bit more instability in null sec. And give you an option to pay more for what would USUALLY (but no guarantees!) probably be a less often camped star vs. stargate.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#44 - 2012-11-23 00:07:21 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
I support this idea, with a major caveat: You should only be able to jump to suns immediately next to the system you are in now, as determined by the existing patterns of star gates.

So no jumping 6 systems over or taking a shortcut between far flung arms of the galaxy.

This restrictions would make it essentially nothing at all like a jump drive, but instead merely a module-requiring alternative to star gates. The advantage being that you have two parallel routes to get anywhere. Yet both take the same amount of time, and both have predictable choke points where people can camp you.



That solves any issues with people whinign about their jump drive ships being undermined, because it would not be able to do the same things as jump drives at all. And it's clearly balanced, because it's no faster than stargates AND it requires module fitting and fuel, while stargates require neither.

Yet it would still be adding a good amount of strategic options to the game and a little bit more instability in null sec. And give you an option to pay more for what would USUALLY (but no guarantees!) probably be a less often camped star vs. stargate.


And that would be the end of any reason to use it. Jump Drive ships already have nothing to complain about with the idea.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2012-11-23 17:13:17 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
I support this idea, with a major caveat: You should only be able to jump to suns immediately next to the system you are in now, as determined by the existing patterns of star gates.

So no jumping 6 systems over or taking a shortcut between far flung arms of the galaxy.

This restrictions would make it essentially nothing at all like a jump drive, but instead merely a module-requiring alternative to star gates. The advantage being that you have two parallel routes to get anywhere. Yet both take the same amount of time, and both have predictable choke points where people can camp you.



That solves any issues with people whinign about their jump drive ships being undermined, because it would not be able to do the same things as jump drives at all. And it's clearly balanced, because it's no faster than stargates AND it requires module fitting and fuel, while stargates require neither.

Yet it would still be adding a good amount of strategic options to the game and a little bit more instability in null sec. And give you an option to pay more for what would USUALLY (but no guarantees!) probably be a less often camped star vs. stargate.


And that would be the end of any reason to use it. Jump Drive ships already have nothing to complain about with the idea.

What? I explicitly laid out the reason to use it...

If you want to go from A to B in a dangerous area, you would have TWO ways to do it at every jump. Which means the pirates/defenders have to set up TWO camps (gate and star), OR you have a 50% chance of getting by scot free.

And since the star jump drive would be more expensive and use modules, etc., it is more likely to not be camped, and introduces various interesting strategic decisions, etc.


Disagree about the capital jump drive ships. The arguments given above in the thread are fairly convincing. This star jump drive, as originally suggested, would very much undermine those ships' abilities at a fraction of the startup cost AND a fraction of the fuel cost (cap boosters are super cheap compared to ice fuel), and eliminates a lot of the need for various kinds of large ships at all.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#46 - 2012-11-23 18:42:31 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
If you want to go from A to B in a dangerous area, you would have TWO ways to do it at every jump. Which means the pirates/defenders have to set up TWO camps (gate and star), OR you have a 50% chance of getting by scot free.


What would you do about stargate connections that exceed the SJD's range?

Quote:
And since the star jump drive would be more expensive and use modules, etc., it is more likely to not be camped, and introduces various interesting strategic decisions, etc.


Most of the strategic advantages come from the unpredictable nature of a stargateless system. Your idea isn't bad, but with that kind of limitation, the other cons are far far too excessive.

Quote:
Disagree about the capital jump drive ships. The arguments given above in the thread are fairly convincing. This star jump drive, as originally suggested, would very much undermine those ships' abilities at a fraction of the startup cost AND a fraction of the fuel cost (cap boosters are super cheap compared to ice fuel), and eliminates a lot of the need for various kinds of large ships at all.


Well, I disagree with most of that. Capital Ship gameplay won't change much at all, except for more mobile cyno ships. If anything it buffs them too. As for cap booster prices, supply and demand. And eliminates need for those capital ships? Hardly, and if it does that is a failing in their design, not this idea.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2012-11-23 18:58:41 UTC


Quote:
What would you do about stargate connections that exceed the SJD's range?

Well, the drive should be capable of making the longest jumps, although perhaps it should come at the cost of using like 1/3 of your cargo hold's amount of cap boosters to do so. This is the sort of thing you would use very strategically for those specific gates that you suspect a camp at. Not just willy nilly everywhere.

Quote:
Most of the strategic advantages come from the unpredictable nature of a stargateless system. Your idea isn't bad, but with that kind of limitation, the other cons are far far too excessive.

Okay, details. Make it just one module with a lot of powergrid or something, whatever.

Quote:
Well, I disagree with most of that. Capital Ship gameplay won't change much at all, except for more mobile cyno ships. If anything it buffs them too. As for cap booster prices, supply and demand. And eliminates need for those capital ships? Hardly, and if it does that is a failing in their design, not this idea.

It doesn't hurt the ships' abilities. It just undermines them, by letting people do the same thing cheaper. And since you wouldnt be able to sell the things (no buyers, since they all just get the new cheaper ships), yours stuck with a huge investment that is now rendered into a massive overpayment for the same capabilities.

And yes cap boosters would go up in price, but even a full hold of them costs significantly less than a jump's worth of ice fuel now, and their recipes are cheap enough that they wouldnt go up all that much.
Jeremy Soikutsu
Kite Co. Space Trucking
#48 - 2012-11-23 20:00:04 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:


Quote:
What would you do about stargate connections that exceed the SJD's range?

Well, the drive should be capable of making the longest jumps, although perhaps it should come at the cost of using like 1/3 of your cargo hold's amount of cap boosters to do so.

Would you care to pop open your map and look at SF-XJS <-> HB-5L3?

"Of course you would choose the fun, but you don't lead a relevant entity which has allies." - Colonel Xaven
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2012-11-23 20:33:41 UTC
Jeremy Soikutsu wrote:
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:


Quote:
What would you do about stargate connections that exceed the SJD's range?

Well, the drive should be capable of making the longest jumps, although perhaps it should come at the cost of using like 1/3 of your cargo hold's amount of cap boosters to do so.

Would you care to pop open your map and look at SF-XJS <-> HB-5L3?


Okay, well an alternative would be to simply NOT base it on physical distance.

Instead, it costs a flat rate to star jump, but that rate is high enough that ships cannot even carry enough fuel to do it more than like, roughly 3-4 times or so without filling up again.



With the original idea, it would indeed need to be based on real distance, but if it is instead a parallel, second option to star gates, and can only go where star gates go, then there's no real reason it can't be a flat rate.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#50 - 2012-11-23 21:34:42 UTC
What's the lore reason for it to be forced to follow gate routes? I can't think of a single one tbh. And I don't see a point in merely having it as an alternative to gate travel, it has to have it's own flavor.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2012-11-24 03:18:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimeo Khamsi
Val'Dore wrote:
What's the lore reason for it to be forced to follow gate routes? I can't think of a single one tbh. And I don't see a point in merely having it as an alternative to gate travel, it has to have it's own flavor.


Lore reasons are very much subordinate to gameplay reasons, so I don't honestly care much. Nothing as potentially game changing as this (either your way or my way) should have more than about 1% of its game design consideration based on lore.

If you insist, though, there are all kinds of ways you could explain it. After all, why are the star gates themselves only set up in certain locations? Have you considered that? If they could just fling a ship ANYWHERE, then you would only need one per system, and it could just spin around and point to the desired destination, and send you anywhere you wanted. You wouldn't have dedicated gates to specific locations.

The fact that every single jump currently has two dedicated gates that ONLY serve that route implies that there is some sort of natural physical phenomenon that requires people to take advantage of natural harmony between systems or whatever as is.

(And then in order to overcome that physical restriction, you need much more complex and huge standard jump drives, which can only fit on larger ships.)
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2012-11-24 05:53:31 UTC
Well deserved +1 from me.
So bumpiy dumpty.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#53 - 2012-11-25 14:13:37 UTC
as long as it is scrammable, doesn't jump you ridiculous distances in each and every hull, and won't evolve into a no-to-ganks-buttonl, don't see anything wrong.

It surely is not like a conventional cyno jump.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#54 - 2012-11-25 14:59:26 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
as long as it is scrammable, doesn't jump you ridiculous distances in each and every hull, and won't evolve into a no-to-ganks-buttonl, don't see anything wrong.

It surely is not like a conventional cyno jump.


Should have no problem meeting each and every one of your requirements.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Finn McCaan
1 man and his dog
#55 - 2012-11-26 17:15:29 UTC


3 is only really interesting if each of the modules has a specific aspect that it effects - at the moment I get the impression that 'they let you star jump' is it atm?
If you could say select a jump in point (must be within a band 100,000km to 500,000km from the star) then having a better low slot jump engine might allow you to jump more accurately (important if you in a fleet, less scatter), nav computers that let you make the jump faster or more fuel efficiantly or whatever... something with each set of modules that makes them different.
An extreme version might be a officer module that lets you jump x3 further but lights you up like a Christmas tree on scan (x100 signature radius, with a 10 min cool down time).

Kind of like the idea of the one module with huge powergrid/cpu requirements - rather than set of 3.
Having to offline all your other modules to use the thing might be interesting, ala jump dimming in traveller.

Maybe a gang link to make fleet jumps more efficient / faster or whatever?

On the subject of fuel, using the same fuel type as existing jump drives might be preferable to cap boosters as it then means that by adding a fuel bay to all ships developers have another hard method of balancing ship performance. Possibly you could make fuel bleed off if it where stored in a regular cargo bay (have a special set of containers for it? to large for most hulls except transports/freighters - so that transports can act as tankers?).

How about a snagger/net POS module? Something that projects a field around the system, gives a percentage (multiplied by mass and transit path proximity - drive quality and skills) chance to drag ships transiting through that system into it. Greater radius requires more fuel to run. Good for piracy?


Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2012-11-26 17:55:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Valea Silpha
I sort of like the idea, but I think it shouldn't be something that any ship can make use of. I know the modules idea is so that some ships can't effectively make use of it, but even so... It seems to me that without a combat application, and without a hauling application there isn't really an attractive application. That's the problem with trying to balance something for every hull, you end up with something that seems to lack focus.

What I think would be a better option would be adding them to t3s as an additional propulsion subsystem, baked into Black Ops bs, and with modules that can be fitted to add Star Drive to Rorquals and Carriers (for carriers it precludes triage and takes up a lot of fitting)

I think the real role for Star Drive is facilitating a nomadic approach to the game, both for the 'grand caravan' style (something that doesn't really exist outside of WH space and I think needs to be encouraged) and for a better concept of 'black ops'.

For the former, the problem has always been that its a logistical nightmare, demanding you give up most of your space in fuel and needing hauling alts and cyno alts, and its just too difficult to be worthwhile. Star Drive would radically reduce the number of alts needed and fuel space needed, and allow for small groups of players to operate nomadicly if they wanted to: A capital to drop loot and refit, and a handful of t3s running sites. You can even keep the capital in a system safely hidden away and have the t3s avoid gate camps.

Black ops is basically the same lifestyle as nomadic living, but again is extremely hard because of the logistics needed. Again, capitals are the base for operations, and star drive helps keep them safe and keeps them in that support role. Black Ops bs getting the Star Drive makes them a lot more valuable to a gang, because they wouldn't need cyno chains to move themselves and they can bridge other ships around too. Makes them much more viable and generally less of a ballache.

Some ideas for balancing the system:
It has to be Star to Star (within 100,000 KM of a star's drop point to the same distance from another star). You already have a massive benefit in being able to go to any system within range, so any pursuers should have some idea of where you left from.

The longer the jump, the longer the spool up - Inside a constellation = 60s, Inside a region = 90s, Across a region boundry = 150s, and for capitals there's a flat penalty of 30s extra spool up. This is unconnected to the actual range you jump. The idea is that you can get anywhere, but its risky to go very long distances. For capitals, it may be more desirable to just cyno to places, and thats a good thing.

These things are about changing the risk/reward balance. Star Drive shouldn't be the obvious choice for people leaving their 0.0 station and going shopping or whatever. In safe space with scouts and intel, gates or jump bridges are faster and safer. It should only be the obvious choice for people operating without infrastructure.

So yeah... I think that makes Star Drive more interesting as a play mechanic, and supports some aspects of the game which generally haven't been supported enough. The upsides are all about getting places you don't own largely unnoticed, you give up a decent amount of fighting ability and versatility on the field in exchange for freedom of movement.

Oh and it goes without saying that I think this should be restricted to low-sec and 0.0 only. Sorry, high-sec isn't ready for this.
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