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Star Jump Drive

Author
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#21 - 2012-11-05 12:51:38 UTC
The premise that travel should take time was gone when CCP legitimized the Instajump BM exploit with WTZ. That said, Star Jumps may or may not make travel faster.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

Astroniomix
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-11-05 14:18:08 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:
The premise that travel should take time was gone when CCP legitimized the Instajump BM exploit with WTZ. That said, Star Jumps may or may not make travel faster.

Please stop calling things "exploits" just because you don't like them.
Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID
#23 - 2012-11-05 15:01:40 UTC
I'm in two minds about this SJD idea.

I can understand why some people have already taken a dislike to it. The thought of ninja fleets appearing in your system ready to give you a gank a spank before bedtime is certainly on a lot of peoples minds. That said, losing 3 slots and a big chunk of cargo/ammo space will have a huge effect on a fleets effectiveness. As for advance warning, just stick a cov ops on the suns around likely routes, job done.

It would be cool to get around this way. But that shouldn't be the only reason. 90 seconds is a big spool time and with no cap in that time that means no active modules. Say the fuel is used at the beginning of the spool up, it would be possible for gank teams to wait at a sun, cloaked up, and scram someone moving that way. They couldn't warp off as they wouldn't have the cap to initiate warp. As for the 'no risk hauling' issue, theres more risk with a SJD than using a cloaky T2 hauler, so that argument falls on its face.

All in all, I'm in favour of it. Just make it relatively expensive to do. The choice would be slow boat for free or pay for the speed.

As for fuel, I suggest a new one, made from PI resources, (like nanite paste.) Let's say you combine X amount of rocket fuel, bio cells and oxygen. Star Blocks (tm)
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2012-11-05 15:27:30 UTC
I'm curious now, as frigates will have a longer jump range than dreads under this system, and everything bigger will outjump any dread, carrier or super, what do you expect will happen to regular caps?
Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID
#25 - 2012-11-05 15:40:00 UTC
Reduce the jump distance, problem solved
Aglais
Ice-Storm
Trigger Happy.
#26 - 2012-11-05 15:51:02 UTC
Judging from the fact that this breaks your fitting, doesn't work on freighters or isn't efficient on industrials and takes alot of resources and cargo space, I fail to understand exactly why this is as OP as everyone is making it out to be.

It's a three module system. You're losing a weapon hardpoint, ewar/tank/propulsion, and damage/tank/traditional mobility. That has the possibility to be a large hit. There may be anomalies, like people fitting old-style nano ruptures or something with three functional mid slots and etc. But honestly, do you think gangs of slightly crippled nano ruptures are going to be that hard to deal with? Maybe hard to catch but if you've got guys in interceptors and send attack cruisers after them once they're tackled they'll probably get wasted.

Another thing that I can see this module doing is removing Solitude's current status as a safe haven from traditional highsec wars, which I personally think is a good thing. And if you actually do manage to get haulers out there (probably with a significant defense fleet I'd imagine given the risks) you could even give Solitude a legitimate market.

I don't really see too much wrong with this idea. Except for jump ranges. Instead of lowering subcapital jumpranges into the point of being totally useless though I think that capital jump mechanics should be altered in some way, shape or form. I believe capitals already have this function built into them. That'd be one thing, they're combat capable right after jumping. Subcapitals would have to refit. By default capitals should have just over the range of battleships, but with a cyno you could go a reasonable amount farther, perhaps?

Also, the cynosural field generator and this subcapital jump drive system cannot be fitted simultaneously to the same ship. Some kind of electronics bottleneck or something.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#27 - 2012-11-05 16:00:29 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:
The premise that travel should take time was gone when CCP legitimized the Instajump BM exploit with WTZ. That said, Star Jumps may or may not make travel faster.

Please stop calling things "exploits" just because you don't like them.


Insta BMs were exploiting the BM system to get an unintended effect, just because CCP took the easy way out, doesn't make it any less of an exploit. The point still stands, CCP hasn't cared about travel times in years.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#28 - 2012-11-05 16:09:15 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
I'm curious now, as frigates will have a longer jump range than dreads under this system, and everything bigger will outjump any dread, carrier or super, what do you expect will happen to regular caps?


The numbers are placeholders.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2012-11-05 16:31:34 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
I'm curious now, as frigates will have a longer jump range than dreads under this system, and everything bigger will outjump any dread, carrier or super, what do you expect will happen to regular caps?


The numbers are placeholders.



Given that a dreadnaught and supercarrier's base jump range is 5 LY, a carriers is 6.5, and a titans is a mere 3.5LY, what do you think would be acceptable numbers for subcaps? A blackops can manage 2 LY, which I assume would be the range of a battleship under your system, and that can barely move it more than three or four systems.

Would the point of this just be that you want an easy way to get around camps?
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#30 - 2012-11-05 16:36:57 UTC
More options are good things. Besides, gate camps are not that common anymore, except in very predictable locations.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

Gneeznow
Ship spinners inc
Silentium Consortium
#31 - 2012-11-05 17:40:45 UTC
Often wrestled with a similar idea myself, except I thought of capitals being able to jump to any sun without a cyno rather than subcaps. I think the cyno mechanism is pretty dated these days because it adds work to everything related to jump drive ships (but CCP no doubt disagree, because there's an awful lot of cyno-alt accounts out there generating income).

I also wrestled with the idea of of a sun-to-sun warp drive, that would take perhaps, 7 minutes travel in a warp tunnel per light year, so it would not be travel efficient, but more of a way to let people into null-sec avoiding the chokepoints and making logistics easier (ie: more populated 0.0) and generally opening up ALL of space provided you were willing to spend quite a bit of time sitting in a warp tunnel. Perhaps it's not feasible for every ship, but how about giving maybe recons / bombers / black ops this ability? or giving them the ability to fit this Star Jump Drive.

A large core game mechanic change like this is risky so I'm absolutely certain CCP won't touch it with a 40,000 foot pole, but it's nice to theorycraft about how changes would change the game.
Eternal Montage
Panic Stations.
Panic Attack.
#32 - 2012-11-05 18:21:03 UTC
I am 50/50 on this. On one hand, the way you've described this working is a bit overpowered and it ruins the significance of capitals being able to jump... It makes that aspect of them no big deal. That can't happen, you can't ruin one part of the game for the sake of adding another one.

On the other hand you've created this interesting use for stars. It makes stars more significant and adds a whole new element of gameplay. I really like the idea of "star camping" and it would be cool to be able to jump to some extent with sub capitals. Maybe this is a good idea with just a poorly calculated method of implementing it.

What if only certain ships could do it? Maybe it takes up cargo space as well. Maybe it takes up ALL the cargo space except on certain specialized ships (transport ships?). Imagine this. You can't just put it on pvp ships because they need to carry ammo. You can't put it on any old hauler because... well they won't be able to haul. It needs to have less range than a cyno too! That is just a fact!

I like the idea, it would be cool to use those stars for something. Even if its not this, the idea of star interaction sounds really cool to me!

Point to Gryffindor!
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#33 - 2012-11-05 18:40:52 UTC
Eternal Montage wrote:
I am 50/50 on this. On one hand, the way you've described this working is a bit overpowered and it ruins the significance of capitals being able to jump... It makes that aspect of them no big deal. That can't happen, you can't ruin one part of the game for the sake of adding another one.


It wouldn't ruin the capital ship game. Capital ship pilots shouldn't noticed any change at all really. Jump Drives aren't why people have capital ships in any case... hell I'm pretty sure quite a few would rather use gates.

Quote:
On the other hand you've created this interesting use for stars. It makes stars more significant and adds a whole new element of gameplay. I really like the idea of "star camping" and it would be cool to be able to jump to some extent with sub capitals. Maybe this is a good idea with just a poorly calculated method of implementing it.


Gimping ships that use SJDs with not just one module, but three? Not sure how that is poor implementation, unless you of the opinion is should have fewer drawbacks?

Quote:
What if only certain ships could do it? Maybe it takes up cargo space as well. Maybe it takes up ALL the cargo space except on certain specialized ships (transport ships?). Imagine this. You can't just put it on pvp ships because they need to carry ammo. You can't put it on any old hauler because... well they won't be able to haul. It needs to have less range than a cyno too! That is just a fact!


As proposed there are already a limited number of ships that can use the SJD. The fuel already takes up cargo, and taking up all the cargo is silly, because then how would you 'run out' of gas? PvP ships using the SJD would do one of two things: Refit after they jump or design their ship's fit to work with the SJD always fitted. As for cynos, I'm not sure why a star visible in another galaxy would be less of a beacon than a small localized chemical reaction.

Quote:
I like the idea, it would be cool to use those stars for something. Even if its not this, the idea of star interaction sounds really cool to me!


I actually first proposed this when jump drives were on the drawing board, CCP went with the cyno system because they had a mistaken belief that they could force teamwork.

Anyway, glad you like it :)

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

Eternal Montage
Panic Stations.
Panic Attack.
#34 - 2012-11-05 18:48:32 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:
Eternal Montage wrote:
I am 50/50 on this. On one hand, the way you've described this working is a bit overpowered and it ruins the significance of capitals being able to jump... It makes that aspect of them no big deal. That can't happen, you can't ruin one part of the game for the sake of adding another one.


It wouldn't ruin the capital ship game. Capital ship pilots shouldn't noticed any change at all really. Jump Drives aren't why people have capital ships in any case... hell I'm pretty sure quite a few would rather use gates.

Quote:
On the other hand you've created this interesting use for stars. It makes stars more significant and adds a whole new element of gameplay. I really like the idea of "star camping" and it would be cool to be able to jump to some extent with sub capitals. Maybe this is a good idea with just a poorly calculated method of implementing it.


Gimping ships that use SJDs with not just one module, but three? Not sure how that is poor implementation, unless you of the opinion is should have fewer drawbacks?

Quote:
What if only certain ships could do it? Maybe it takes up cargo space as well. Maybe it takes up ALL the cargo space except on certain specialized ships (transport ships?). Imagine this. You can't just put it on pvp ships because they need to carry ammo. You can't put it on any old hauler because... well they won't be able to haul. It needs to have less range than a cyno too! That is just a fact!


As proposed there are already a limited number of ships that can use the SJD. The fuel already takes up cargo, and taking up all the cargo is silly, because then how would you 'run out' of gas? PvP ships using the SJD would do one of two things: Refit after they jump or design their ship's fit to work with the SJD always fitted. As for cynos, I'm not sure why a star visible in another galaxy would be less of a beacon than a small localized chemical reaction.

Quote:
I like the idea, it would be cool to use those stars for something. Even if its not this, the idea of star interaction sounds really cool to me!


I actually first proposed this when jump drives were on the drawing board, CCP went with the cyno system because they had a mistaken belief that they could force teamwork.

Anyway, glad you like it :)


You bring up some good points, but one thing you should take into account is this: "what would CCP do?" I can tell you they certainly won't do what you've laid out here, but I'm almost certain that they will find your idea very interesting and inspiring. I hope they do something like this, but again, I find the specifics of it a little wonky. Furthermore, it's not about the cap pilots noticing a change--it's about jumping being a privilege specific to very large ships that are designed for it. Don't take the exclusivity of it away from them, they trained long and hard and spent a lot of isk to get highly capable ships and in the case of Jump Freighters... yes it IS all about the jump drive, that is the main reason people train for JFs! Giving this capability to everyone ruins JF business--some people make their entire living off of it. It throws the game out of balance a bit.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2012-11-05 19:42:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Val'Dore wrote:
The meat and potatoes of the SJD is the ability to forego the Cynosaural Field entirely. The SJD jumps directly to the Sun of the target system. This makes hotdropping with SJDs pointless, but make them a good strategic travel system for non capital fleets.
You can still hot-drop, you just have to enter warp to the target. It would still allow a ton of ships to suddenly appear in a system they weren't in a moment ago, immediately after a small defensive fleet had tackled some other ships. Though they would still have to defend themselves for a couple minutes.

But I don't see the hotdropping potential as a problem. If caps can do it, why can't subcaps do it? Of course, it shouldn't be easy.

I think this is a cool idea that deserves some looking into and tweaking. Also, I like the idea of having areas of space without stargates at all, so you have to find some other way to get there. Another cool thing would be conquerable stargates, which you could shut off or deny access to, to prevent normal access to the system or filter it and only allow friendlies in.

Lastly, I'd say the fuel should definitely NOT be cap booster charges. It should be expensive, and cap booster charges are really cheap. Howabout the same fuel that capital ship jump drives use? It is a jump drive after all. And increasing the demand for ice fuels would increase the value of mining ice.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#36 - 2012-11-05 20:00:10 UTC
Eternal Montage wrote:
You bring up some good points, but one thing you should take into account is this: "what would CCP do?" I can tell you they certainly won't do what you've laid out here, but I'm almost certain that they will find your idea very interesting and inspiring. I hope they do something like this, but again, I find the specifics of it a little wonky. Furthermore, it's not about the cap pilots noticing a change--it's about jumping being a privilege specific to very large ships that are designed for it. Don't take the exclusivity of it away from them, they trained long and hard and spent a lot of isk to get highly capable ships and in the case of Jump Freighters... yes it IS all about the jump drive, that is the main reason people train for JFs! Giving this capability to everyone ruins JF business--some people make their entire living off of it. It throws the game out of balance a bit.


I'm very much aware of how CCP implements player originated ideas. They copied my Sovereignty 2.0 idea right down to the last detail, but left out the most critical parts that made the whole thing work.

Jumping was supposed to be a balancing method, keeping capitals separate from the sub caps was supposed to limit cap proliferation and encourage them for strategic uses. It was also the way they could control their access to high sec. Jump Drives added a training and ISK sink, as well as gave their pet ice mining idea some much needed customers.

SJDs in no way ruin JFs. SJD ships still have very little cargo of consequence, and even a Deep Space Transport ship has to sacrifice a lot of cargo to make use of the SJD. So no, I don't see JFs any more threatened by the SJD than Freighters were by Carriers.

Yes, I do know that Carriers were used as JFs before they were fixed.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

Eternal Montage
Panic Stations.
Panic Attack.
#37 - 2012-11-05 20:02:11 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:
Eternal Montage wrote:
You bring up some good points, but one thing you should take into account is this: "what would CCP do?" I can tell you they certainly won't do what you've laid out here, but I'm almost certain that they will find your idea very interesting and inspiring. I hope they do something like this, but again, I find the specifics of it a little wonky. Furthermore, it's not about the cap pilots noticing a change--it's about jumping being a privilege specific to very large ships that are designed for it. Don't take the exclusivity of it away from them, they trained long and hard and spent a lot of isk to get highly capable ships and in the case of Jump Freighters... yes it IS all about the jump drive, that is the main reason people train for JFs! Giving this capability to everyone ruins JF business--some people make their entire living off of it. It throws the game out of balance a bit.


I'm very much aware of how CCP implements player originated ideas. They copied my Sovereignty 2.0 idea right down to the last detail, but left out the most critical parts that made the whole thing work.

Jumping was supposed to be a balancing method, keeping capitals separate from the sub caps was supposed to limit cap proliferation and encourage them for strategic uses. It was also the way they could control their access to high sec. Jump Drives added a training and ISK sink, as well as gave their pet ice mining idea some much needed customers.

SJDs in no way ruin JFs. SJD ships still have very little cargo of consequence, and even a Deep Space Transport ship has to sacrifice a lot of cargo to make use of the SJD. So no, I don't see JFs any more threatened by the SJD than Freighters were by Carriers.

Yes, I do know that Carriers were used as JFs before they were fixed.


I still don't think what you've laid out is restrictive enough... How would you feel about system sec status limitations?
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#38 - 2012-11-09 00:32:41 UTC
Eternal Montage wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:
Eternal Montage wrote:
You bring up some good points, but one thing you should take into account is this: "what would CCP do?" I can tell you they certainly won't do what you've laid out here, but I'm almost certain that they will find your idea very interesting and inspiring. I hope they do something like this, but again, I find the specifics of it a little wonky. Furthermore, it's not about the cap pilots noticing a change--it's about jumping being a privilege specific to very large ships that are designed for it. Don't take the exclusivity of it away from them, they trained long and hard and spent a lot of isk to get highly capable ships and in the case of Jump Freighters... yes it IS all about the jump drive, that is the main reason people train for JFs! Giving this capability to everyone ruins JF business--some people make their entire living off of it. It throws the game out of balance a bit.


I'm very much aware of how CCP implements player originated ideas. They copied my Sovereignty 2.0 idea right down to the last detail, but left out the most critical parts that made the whole thing work.

Jumping was supposed to be a balancing method, keeping capitals separate from the sub caps was supposed to limit cap proliferation and encourage them for strategic uses. It was also the way they could control their access to high sec. Jump Drives added a training and ISK sink, as well as gave their pet ice mining idea some much needed customers.

SJDs in no way ruin JFs. SJD ships still have very little cargo of consequence, and even a Deep Space Transport ship has to sacrifice a lot of cargo to make use of the SJD. So no, I don't see JFs any more threatened by the SJD than Freighters were by Carriers.

Yes, I do know that Carriers were used as JFs before they were fixed.


I still don't think what you've laid out is restrictive enough... How would you feel about system sec status limitations?


3 Modules that takes up as much as 20% of a given ship's fitting, plus requiring fuel... I don't see why it should need more restrictions... unless you want to add no using stargates to that.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#39 - 2012-11-13 19:53:18 UTC
I actually really like this idea. I don't see any game breaking issue with it. Since you are jumping to a star it will not be a safe spot. With no cyno alt at the destination, you will have no way of knowing if you are jumping into a star camp unless you run a scout.

I was thinking of something similar to this as an advanced jump drive used by T2 capital ships jumping to stars instead of cyno's. But this idea is much better. Perhaps it should be limited to T2 or higher ships though, as it would need the advanced computer system of a tech 2 ship to make the new highly advanced star jump drive work.

It would be less used for invasion fleets if you has to use marauders and command ships or other T2 or T3 ships. Making it available to all T1 ships might be a little too game changing. Although I do not believe it would be game breaking.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#40 - 2012-11-13 21:45:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Val'Dore
That is an interesting idea, I like the T2/T3 requirement adjustment.

Every T2 ship would have a special bonus for CPU requirements of Navigation Array, which itself would have 10k CPU need.

Now I just need a T2 Caldari Gunship BS...

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

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