EVE General Discussion

I believe the point of the OP is that having the. Cost of production of the least useful modules outstripping the sell price of the most useful T1 modules is bass-ackward.

Scarily enough I am aware of this fact. Just because that's how it is now does not automatically make it a good thing. From the standpoint of any manufacturer it makes T1 bpos an utterly wasted investment. This is the point of the conversation, not that supply and demand is an invalid barometer. BPOs Should be more useful than poor mans mineral compressor.

Otherwise what's the point? By and large there is very little profit to be had making modules. Meta 4 does everything better and cheaper.

Don't you remember how the situation was perfectly fine earlier? Meta 4 items used to cost many times more than T2 items. Then they increased the drop rates in hisec to keep L4-runner income above low & null income, and ruined both the meta and T2 markets.

…and yet I made a fortune through my T1 BPOs. That would make an interesting definition of “wasted”.

There is far more in that than it is in trying to farm loot drops. Earning a profit from making modules is very easy, and the scale is quite appropriate for the difficulty it presents. You get your training wheels on with T1 and build your stock and skills to go on to T2.

…and the counter-point is that you haven't managed to offer much in the way of compelling evidence to prove this. You've shown that loot is being bought for minerals (or, rather, you tried to prove your point but this was the reality behind your misunderstanding) and that one specific meta module competes with T2.

Riiiiight… that's why the averages were so much below mineral cost: because no sane builder would obviously put out mass orders for them to get stuff for free.

Anyway, good for you if you can make that kind of money on building T1. Kind of shows that it's not really a problem though (unless you did it in some other way, which would make it a rather unrelated and pointless remark on your part). It also doesn't change the fact that you have shown yourself to be quite clueless about market and building in the examples you've chosen. You can scream, swear, and bluster as much as you like — your mistakes are obvious and available for all to see, and I wasn't alone in picking them up as you might have noticed…

Funnily enough, I made about a billion in sales as well. All sales of stuff I've manufactured; no trading back and forth of goods others have collected. There's a nice market for my goods and I can't say that meta items stole any of those sales for me — I sure can't keep my production up with the rate of sale.

Yes you are. Your use of “I shouldn't have to” [this or that] is the epitome of opinion. Not only are you expressing an opinion , but you're also backing it up with assumptions, incorrect numbers and a stunning lack of logic. None of it bodes well for your reliability in regards to what does and what does not compete for sales in the market.

Would you like to talk about that “fact” (absolutely not opinion) that a lower bonus is better than a higher one in this supposedly stats-based game? Hmm?

So why are you trying, when, again, the examples you picked showed exactly that? If you have some detailed information or analysis to show that below-mineral-cost mods are not being sold for minerals, then it's about time you coughed it up.

T1 manufacturing most certainly is for getting your feet wet, and your problem is that you're confusing two rather different professions: manufacturing and trading. When you build a T2 mod and it's being outsold by a meta item, you are catering to a different market and you're making more money than the manufacturers of those items are.

As a builder, you have your dozen manufacturing slots, and that means you should go for what gives you the most bang for your buck. T2 does. This is why you go there when you start maxing you what you get for T1 goods you manufacture using the same slots. You also don't need much more than 30 trade slots to get that stuff on the market (and maybe as many again for material buy orders).

Good news: it doesn't. The point of building the T2 item to sell it is to make money, and what would make it a waste of time and slots is if you keep building up large unsold stockpiles of the item without getting them sold for the kind of profit you're looking for. You keep trying to make a case about lost sales, but you're not really showing that you're losing any.

Oh, and by the way: why shouldn't you have to compete with other players who spent month training skills to be able to acquire goods to put to the market just because you spent months training skills to be able to acquire goods to put to the market?

You have to if you want to produce them in numbers that come remotely close to what industrialists produce.

That's because you aren't responding to my arguments with anything but bluster and swearing, when what's needed is data, logic, and some kind of evidence to support your claims.

…nor is there anything that says they should be better. Thus why I'm asking you “so what?” You keep saying that named items are cutting into sales of T1 or even T2, but offer very little to support this, and more to the point, offer very little to demonstrate why this is a problem. It's all player-driven. Players have driven it to a point where just about everything sells; everything has its use; everything has its market niche… well, except maybe low-meta stuff, which is just minerals in another form and which sells for that reason.

Largely because I didn't say that. I said that T1 has become a T2 component. This doesn't preclude me from selling a lot of T1 stuff — quite the opposite. Since T1 is a component for T2, there's a lot of it you can sell.

…which is why I'm pointing out things that are wrong, such as you claiming that lower bonuses are better than higher ones and such as you trying to hold up modules that are sold for mineral content alone as examples of cutting into manufactured sales (when it's far more likely that the opposite is true: they are sold to aid manufactured sales).

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Not being special isn't really a problem. I just don't think that "common" loot drops should be either.

1200mm Artillery Cannon 1

• (This is NOT just used for minerals, these are guns that are fitted to ships. I do not sell this **** in high sec, I do ALL of my business in null. I know these are used for fitting based on the numbers I sell and the fact that people buy the ships off me and then buy one of these guns)

Damage modifier: 5.082
Optimal: 32.20 km

"Scout" version
Dmg mod: 6.098
Optimal: 38.64

They sell for pretty much the same price DUE TO THE COST OF BUILDING THE META 0. Except that the playermade one has basically ZERO footprint, while the "scout" has a very large footprint.

Here's the real kick int he teeth. THE T2 VERSION HAS THE EXACT SAME STATS AS THE SCOUT.
The scout can be sold for less BECAUSE IT HAS A LOWER MINERAL VALUE, and it only has T1 skill prereqs. THIS IS NOT THE ONLY GUN LIKE THIS, not even the only module. The scout is abundant, there is no shortage of these guns; it's a "COMMON" drop.

The "scout" version has a MUCH larger footprint than BOTH playermade version.
The T2 version sells for more than twice what the "scout" one sells for; again, because of the cost of bulding it.
The "scout" version is the go to gun in this group because it costs more than half what the equivilent playermade item does, and requires less skill training to fit.

There is no debating this, it is not an opinion, it is a fact based entirely on numbers. The numbers associated with the stats of the module, and the numbers that they're sold for on the market.

When I started EVE 7 years ago, what drew me to the game was the player driven economy that was based on players building and selling the items that other players would use. This is how CCP advertised the game, but does not entirely work that way.

When NPC loot has market footprints that far excede that of the playermade variant, something isn't right. If people don't know, or simply don't give a **** is fine; my only desire here is to make sure that people aren't forgetting that this exists and I hope that when they're asking CCP to "fix" things that they will keep in mind that industry needs a buff to more than just manufacturing in null. We also need a buff to make our items more viable on the market.

This is not just a low or null issue, even though it has a bigger impact on me in null, it's an all of EVE issue. One that I hope more industrialists will keep in mind when they ask CCP to help out industry. PVEers do not need the best drops in the game in high sec. Mission and NPC bounty payouts can be buffed to adjust for any loss of income that a PvEer would see if their items weren't the best ones to sell ont he market, or if the drop rates were drastically cut on these sort of items.

If there items were rare, and not readilly available, the stuff we make would have a much easier time selling.
I am only piad one way, when someone purchases something I sell. A PvEer has multiple sources of income, mission rewards, time bonuses, bounties, salvage, and loot drops; all from doing a single mission.

They could also make the NPC T1 loot with the same stats as playermade T2 items actually require the skill prereqs that the T2 items have.

T2 guns are better than meta 4 guns. The specialization skills do not work on meta 4 (up to 10% gain at lvl 5), the difference is not big, but it's there. Also meta 4 can't shoot tech 2 ammo. Situationally, this can be for the better or worse, having the flexibility of being able to fire tech 2 ammo when it's better is a good thing.

Also, not all tech 2 items sell for less than meta 4, 220mm vulcan AC's (or any medium sized AC) for example.

I believe the case with the 1200mm might be related to the long skill train to get tech 2 large projectile turrets. It also might be related to a lack of demand for the meta 4 items. Low demand meta 4 items I find really kills any ideas of producing meta 0 items of the same type, since the supply of meta 4s can push the price of htem right down to mineral reprocess rates.

I dont think much about the costs of producing meta 0 items, neither have I researched this issue much, but it does seem imbalanced. I think that perhaps swapping the produced items to meta 4 stats, and bumping all the npc loot down a meta level in stats might remedy the issue, but i think that is probably a lot of work for CCP to do.

I don't think that reducing the costs of meta 0 will do much to remedy the issue, since I believe that people generally buy at least meta 3, usualy meta 4, without thinking twice about it for most modules, since they are relatively inexpensive. Thus meta 0 would be cheaper to produce, but the volume wouldnt change much at all as compared to meta 4 volumes.

Tech 2 AB's are all better than the meta versions, if your looking for speed.

The use more cap though, but that's the price you pay if you got hte need for speed.

The tech 2 MWD's can be better in a sense as well, since you will have more overall cap and generally your won't be running the MWD 100% of the time (some exceptions here). I think that this advantage is somewhat negligible though due to mainly the price difference, as well as the advantage being very situational and very tiny.

On the other hand, tech 2 webbers are just flat out worse than meta 4. Exact same stats only the meta 4 costs less to activate. Not sure if this was an oversight by CCP but from a manufacturers point of view this seems very broken.