These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Substantially decrease the mineral needs of BP's?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#61 - 2012-10-25 21:33:04 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Rordan D'Kherr wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

You are welcome.


This isn't supply and demand.


This is, player made items have worse stats than named npc loot, but the most mineral investment.

It costs 50k to build said item, while the NPC loot variant with bettter stats can be sold for 3k isk on the market and make a profit. Gues what people AREN'T buying, the **** made by the player.


The cheap **** should be the cheapest ****, not the most expensive. WTF.

Yes it is supply and demand. Many meta 1 to 4 items have sufficient demand that their prices are well above their mineral value, and well above the meta 0 items players can make. Other meta 1-4 items are in such high supply compared to demand that their price has sunk to their reprocessed mineral value. In that case, you should select some other item to manufacture.

CCP could always have one run BPCs for meta 1-4 items drop instead of the item itself.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#62 - 2012-10-25 21:48:32 UTC
Maybe players are choosing to buy nontech related goods to stick it to the man.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#63 - 2012-10-25 21:49:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
That's what I'm saying Tippia,
When the stats on the player made item are better than the NPC dropped ones, than the player made item actually sells.
…so pretty much always, then.

Quote:
There are still items in the game that are created out of thin air that are statwise better than what players can build.
…and in every case, the player-built item has a stat that is better than what NPCs bring to the table: availability. By the way, those are also player-created, only through different processes. Oh and, incidentally, if you manage to get a profit margin of over 160k ISK per unit (and you do), you're better off producing T2 MWDs than Experimental ones.

Quote:
The 10mn MWD is an example of an item that isn't in line with the way the Adaptive invuln items are balanced. The one I make is much worse than the one that you get off of an NPC for practically no cost.
It's not ”much worse”. It offers the benefit of lower cap draw at the cost of a higher cap penalty. Which one is better or worse will depend on what you fit it to and how you intend to use it.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#64 - 2012-10-25 21:57:02 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
That's what I'm saying Tippia,
When the stats on the player made item are better than the NPC dropped ones, than the player made item actually sells.
…so pretty much always, then.

Quote:
There are still items in the game that are created out of thin air that are statwise better than what players can build.
…and in every case, the player-built item has a stat that is better than what NPCs bring to the table: availability. By the way, those are also player-created, only through different processes. Oh and, incidentally, if you manage to get a profit margin of over 160k ISK per unit (and you do), you're better off producing T2 MWDs than Experimental ones.

Quote:
The 10mn MWD is an example of an item that isn't in line with the way the Adaptive invuln items are balanced. The one I make is much worse than the one that you get off of an NPC for practically no cost.
It's not ”much worse”. It offers the benefit of lower cap draw at the cost of a higher cap penalty. Which one is better or worse will depend on what you fit it to and how you intend to use it.

I'll say one thing about Tippia.

She's not sector prejudice. ANY argument over ANY thing with ANYONE is fine. Roll

(Saves me from shitpoasting OP just 'cos he's a Goon.)

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#65 - 2012-10-25 22:08:24 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
I'll say one thing about Tippia.

She's not sector prejudice. ANY argument over ANY thing with ANYONE is fine. Roll
Not quite. There's a pattern to it, but it seems to defy all prejudice so it continuously confound expectations. Twisted
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#66 - 2012-10-25 22:28:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Tippia wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
I'll say one thing about Tippia.

She's not sector prejudice. ANY argument over ANY thing with ANYONE is fine. Roll
Not quite. There's a pattern to it, but it seems to defy all prejudice so it continuously confound expectations. Twisted

Might have a lot to with definitions these days.

We have NullZealots, NullBears, NullMoanBears, OmniBears, CareBears and people that just play.

And many have at least one of 2 or 3 types. Whose who anymore?

Stay the course, fight the good fight. Whatever that is anymore too?

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-10-25 22:45:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Tippia wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
That's what I'm saying Tippia, When the stats on the player made item are better than the NPC dropped ones, than the player made item actually sells.
…so pretty much always, then.
Quote:


There are still items in the game that are created out of thin air that are statwise better than what players can build.
…and in every case, the player-built item has a stat that is better than what NPCs bring to the table: availability. By the way, those are also player-created, only through different processes. Oh and, incidentally, if you manage to get a profit margin of over 160k ISK per unit (and you do), you're better off producing T2 MWDs than Experimental ones.
Quote:


The 10mn MWD is an example of an item that isn't in line with the way the Adaptive invuln items are balanced. The one I make is much worse than the one that you get off of an NPC for practically no cost.
It's not ”much worse”. It offers the benefit of lower cap draw at the cost of a higher cap penalty. Which one is better or worse will depend on what you fit it to and how you intend to use it.


WTF, Tippia. There are still items in the game with NPC variants that are BETTER than the meta 0. I don't care if it's only one ******* item, NO ITEM should be better. It is simply wrong to say that the variant items left are only better "in some way".

No Tippia, The Experimental 10mn MWD is not better "in some way", it is is simply better, and there are other modules like that. NPC dropped modules do not outsell player made ones by huge margins, and at higher costs because they aren't better.

You're telling me that the 1400mm "scout" artillery isn't better than the the player made one? Yes, it's better "in some way" it gives you 2% more damage than the player built one. It also sells far more than the player built one and for much better, which it should, being the better item.

Dual 425mm autocannon 1. Even the worse variant has sold more than 7x what the player made one sold; which happens to be a whopping 10 in Jita. The best selling variant sold 124 units so far today in jita; everyone of the variants is better than what we can build.

BZ-5 neutralizing Sapatial Destabilizer. 896 units so far.
Player build version, 110

Take a look at CPU upgrades.

Remote sensor boosters.

Large hull repairer.

Seriously?
I spend time every day looking at this **** to figure out what I can actually build and sell. You're telling me that there is no problem here, while the house burns around me.

No it's not every item, but once you get into the hundreds of market orders you start to see just how much crap isn't worth building because of NPC loot.


BTW, if I build the T1 version then I also build the T2 version as well. Building a T2 version isn't the solution to T1 items being worthless due to NPC loot. I don't sell the T2 versions anywhere near as well as the T1 variants sell, smaller profit margins on T1 items is fine if you actually sell that item.

NPC loot shouldn't be forcing me to NOT build stuff in a game like EVE.
Herr Hammer Draken
#68 - 2012-10-25 22:54:21 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I keep saying suply and demand aren't the problem and people keep coming back with supply and demand.


Supply and demand governs what sells. But this is a video game. STATS determine what sells best.

The t1 variants with BETTER STATS are going to always sell more than the player made one. There is no reason for player made items to have worse stats than things not made by the players.

I can't make something have better stats to compete. This isn't real world economics, some things get thrown off when code dictates effect.

In the real world you can not pull a car out of thin air that is better than any car made by any man, you can in EVE. THERE IS NO SHORTAGE of these items. Without the possibility of shortages within a supply chain, supply and demand is thrown off.

Prices in EVE are first and formost determined by stats, not supply and demand. Many T1 items are not a part of the supply and demand part of EVE's economy, because we can't simply make a better product.

Supply and demand does not explain why there are meta 4 items that are better than player made items. Supply and demand has NOTHING to do with that. There's no demand for items with bad stats in the T1 market, and it has nothing to do with supply and demand because it's dictated by code.


There is a third factor that you are discounting besides just supply and demand. That is a wide moat of protection due to factors of locations. Examples of this are if BPO's can not be found anywhere close by or if they are extremely hazardous to transport to your location. That gives you some level of command for your product as it is difficult for competition to set up in your area.

Of course traders can always bring in product to sell in your station. If they had a hazardous time doing so that would increase your moat.

If you set up shop is an area far away from a major hub, distance becomes the moat. So even with supply and demand niches can be found if you look for them.

Being in an organized corp in Null I think you would be best off coordinating with the corp leaders for building your moat.
The corp is probably behind restocking the station with items. Be part of that.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#69 - 2012-10-25 23:05:30 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
NPC loot shouldn't be forcing me to NOT build stuff in a game like EVE.

I woulda thought NOT building something was a CHOICE thing.

FORCE is what you apply to get something to do something it isn't doing.

(although, if we intend to stay true Newtonian, FORCE could be used to stop something doing something it is doing but that's not the errr... case here.)

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#70 - 2012-10-25 23:34:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
WTF, Tippia. There are still items in the game with NPC variants that are BETTER than the meta 0.
So. What.
It doesn't matter. T1 are components for T2 these days. T2 is generally better than named (and even when it isn't in every aspect, it is in some aspect). T1 manufacturing is profitable and sells nicely in volumes for the beginner industrialist because there is a solid demand for it.

Quote:
No Tippia, The Experimental 10mn MWD is not better "in some way", it is is simply better
Yes, because having less cap is obviously better than having more. Roll

Quote:
You're telling me that the 1400mm "scout" artillery isn't better than the the player made one?
Yes. Scout artillery cannot load the same ammo and doesn't get the same skill bonuses.

Quote:
Dual 425mm autocannon
Large Hull Reppers
Yes, let's use the most oddball modules as examples to generalise from. Roll
These modules are being sold at a loss — gee I wonder why they have such high trading volumes. They have exactly zero impact on the volume of player-made modules sold.

Quote:
BZ-5 neutralizing Sapatial Destabilizer
Take a look at CPU upgrades.
Remote sensor boosters.
ECM: A case where we have the meta-4 vs. meta-5 balance, and where the meta-4 advantage (fitting, cap draw) outweighs the meta-5 advantage (availability). Oh, and it's a speciality mod fitted to, what? 4 ships in the entire game? That bodes well for its representativeness…
CPU upgrades: player-made is vastly more popular and more than an order of magnitude more expensive (oh, and the meta variants are often sold at a loss).
RSB: vastly more profitable to manufacture than to hunt for, especially since the meta variant is, once again, often sold at a loss…

That leaves a massive one example where the meta variant might plausibly take away any amount of industry-produced sales, and that one is for a set of modules with a very niche set of customers.

Instead of looking at what to build and sell, maybe you should look at what to buy since a lot of what you see as competition is actually stuff that would earn you easy money. At no point are you “forced not to build“ anything — you (incorrectly) choose not to build stuff because you are clueless about the value of the things you're looking at.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#71 - 2012-10-25 23:45:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Tippia wrote:
Instead of looking at what to build and sell, maybe you should look at what to buy since a lot of what you see as competition is actually stuff that would earn you easy money. At no point are you “forced not to build“ anything — you (incorrectly) choose not to build stuff because you are clueless about the value of the things you're looking at.



And you are wrong.

If something drops from an npc that makes it pointless to bild that item, that is wrong.
That happens.

You're telling to stop looking for things to BUILD and sell. I should only buy the NPC dropped items to resell.

And you don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Saying no for the sake of saying no doesn't make you right.

I even directed you to items that players can make that npc loot is better than, items that actually sell, just not the player version, and you're telling me I'm wrong?


Tippia: The house isn't on fire nat, you're wrong.

Natsett (jumping around, screaming in agony as his body is consumed in flame): ************ I NEEDS SOME WATER!!!!!!!

Tippia: No, you're wrong, just stop being on fire. There is no fire.
(tippia holds up a picture of a burning house, next to a burning house) See, no fire.




WTF, you even pointed out a module that players make that are better than the looted ones, that also sells better than the looted ones, and you're still trying to tell me I'm wrong.
Vanyr Andrard
VacuumTube
#72 - 2012-10-25 23:50:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Vanyr Andrard
Tippia wrote:

It doesn't matter. T1 are components for T2 these days. T2 is generally better than named (and even when it isn't in every aspect, it is in some aspect). T1 manufacturing is profitable and sells nicely in volumes for the beginner industrialist because there is a solid demand for it.



You really do love repeating yourself, and saying things that everyone already knows, don't you? I don't understand why you think posting a bunch of well-known basic information constitutes a refutation, or even a relevant post. You might as well just post that the sky is blue next time, it will be equally true, and equally meaningful. (what you should actually post, that would be a succinct and clear description of what your position seems to be, is "i don't care about the meta0-4 market, as to whether it's manufactured or dropped by npcs, and producing meta5 equipment is balanced, so I don't see a problem here" Then you'd be done with the thread)

If CCP wanted to make the meta1-4 market more 'sandboxy', then it would be very easy. Make them buildable with separate BPOs and semi-exotic mats, obviously harder the higher the meta level, or just make meta items a semi-rare possibility from each meta0 item run off the production lines by capsuleers. I think either of these would be a beneficial change.

The whole meta1-4 items don't refine into much is another topic entirely, I know personally I think it was a bad change, ended up imbalancing the mineral basket even more. Doing both of the above would make basic manufacturing more varied, and slightly nerf the income of highsec lvl 4's and mining, both very bottable/afk'able.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#73 - 2012-10-25 23:55:20 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
And you are wrong.
About what? About the examples you listed being instances of meta modules being bought from disinterested runners at less than mineral value, i.e. they don't steal production sales but rather give you free minerals? Or about your not being forced to do anything, but rather choosing to do so because you fail to recognize the lack of competition from modules being bought, not for use, but for recycling?

Quote:
If something drops from an npc that makes it pointless to bild that item, that is wrong.
That happens.
These days, the only thing that satisfies both those qualities is ammo. As luck would have it, ammo is required in such vast quantities that NPC drops can't fill them all so there's still a point to building it.

Quote:
You're telling to stop looking for things to BUILD and sell. I should only buy the NPC dropped items to resell.
No. Then you won't be able to make any money since no-one is interested in them at higher prices. You should buy them to reprocess to get at the juicy free minerals inside. That would be you taking advantage of the laziness and/or lack of knowledge on the mission-runners' behalf, and no, there is absolutely, positively, not even the slightest shred of anything remotely wrong with that.

Quote:
I even directed you to items that players can make that npc loot is better than, items that actually sell, just not the player version, and you're telling me I'm wrong?
You directed me to items that are worse than the player-made items; that do not sell other than as free (occasionally compressed) minerals; with one exception: ECM, which is used on a very small set of ships and which as a result isn't a high-volume item regardless, so the loss is insignificant.

So yes, you are wrong. Your house is not on fire — you just didn't look at the menu and chose a vindaloo rather than a korma. You need to a) learn to read, and b) choose milk over water.
Vanyr Andrard
VacuumTube
#74 - 2012-10-25 23:59:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:


So yes, you are wrong. Your house is not on fire — you just didn't look at the menu and chose a vindaloo rather than a korma. You need to a) learn to read, and b) choose milk over water.


No, you need to learn to read, he's not saying his mouth/house is on fire, he's saying he thinks someone should open a pizza place in town because he's sick of eating indian food every time he wants to order out. (in this analogy, opening a pizza place is something only CCP can do)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#75 - 2012-10-25 23:59:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Vanyr Andrard wrote:
I don't understand why you think posting a bunch of well-known basic information constitutes a refutation, or even a relevant post.
Because at times, someone posts something that indicates that he does not know this well-known basic information and would be well served by learning of it.

It constitutes a refutation to said poster's claim that things are working differently, and it is relevant because it corrects a silly misunderstanding.

Quote:
what you should actually post, that would be a succinct and clear description of what your position seems to be, is "i don't care about the meta0-4 market, as to whether it's manufactured or dropped by npcs, and producing meta5 equipment is balanced, so I don't see a problem here" Then you'd be done with the thread
Well, I rather did post that. It doesn't seem to have stuck, though. It also became less relevant when it was revealed that the fundamental problem was a different one: one of not knowing (or perhaps not even understanding) the mineral value of goods and why it may affect the sales volume of said goods.

Quote:
No, you need to learn to read, he's not saying his mouth is on fire
I know. He's saying that his house is on fire. I'm telling him that the hot sensation is not from anything nearly as incendiary as that, but rather from his biting down on something he didn't properly examine beforehand.
Vanyr Andrard
VacuumTube
#76 - 2012-10-26 00:05:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Vanyr Andrard
Tippia wrote:

Well, I rather did post that. It doesn't seem to have stuck, though. It also became less relevant when it was revealed that the fundamental problem was a different one: one of not knowing (or perhaps not even understanding) the mineral value of goods and why it may affect the sales volume of said goods.


That's not the fundamental problem. That's a side issue. See, you say you posted that you don't care about meta0-4 and you think meta5 is fine, so you don't see a problem here, but if you meant it, you would leave the thread, instead of staying here and confusing the issue. If you want to make a thread that's about how to effectively profit from meta0-4 as it is, then you should totally go do that, instead of trying to twist that thread into this. This thread is clearly about whether CCP should change the game so that manufacturing items with a meta level less than 5 is viable, and how they could do that. Not about TRADING those low meta items, that's been covered a million times already. Again, your preference in reposting already known information rather than discussing the topic under discussion shows itself.

Tippia wrote:
I know. He's saying that his house is on fire. I'm telling him that the hot sensation is not from anything nearly as incendiary as that, but rather from his biting down on something he didn't properly examine beforehand.


nope, he's still saying he wants ccp to open a pizza place in town, and nothing's on fire.
Spurty
#77 - 2012-10-26 00:09:52 UTC
When I first started playing this game, I imagined that researching a BPO cranked up the META value of the item.

Moment I learned this wasn't true, I pretty much threw the industrial career under the nearest bus and went for pvping instead. At least when you shoot someone they die (and don't *usually* take negative damage)

I can handle "interesting" game mechanics, but ass backwards, no thanks!

I support you guys getting some sort of logic added to your careers.

Without out hundreds of nutters that sell ships under build costs, I'd have run out of ISK ages ago.

Love you, but you're morons. Lovable morons that sell cheap stuff.

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#78 - 2012-10-26 00:22:25 UTC
I get what you are saying OP. (I Think)

They were screwed either way on this one. Make a Meta 4 reproc higher than a Meta 0 and you might as well have left Meta 0 in the loot table. The trouble is Meta 4 being at reproc in the first place. It shouldn't be. You got the short end of the stick all around if you are trying to be a launcher industrialist. HML is getting nerfed, Torp and Cruise suck. HAM meta 4 while it did spike it is no where near the 3 mill it was a year ago.

Nothing is selling right now. That's the reason you can't compete with Meta on the market.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#79 - 2012-10-26 00:23:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Vanyr Andrard wrote:
That's not the fundamental problem. That's a side issue.
No, it's the fundamental problem because it's the cause behind the OP's issues: he's assuming that competition exists with modules that don't actually steal any sales from him.

Quote:
See, you say you posted that you don't care about meta0-4 and you think meta5 is fine, so you don't see a problem here, but if you meant it, you would leave the thread
No. If I mean that T1 is fine since it's basically only a component like any other these days, and that named modules are not competing with T1 because they either don't divert any sales or because they have different uses completely (and I do), then I will stay in the thread and point this out to demonstrate why the issue the OP is seeing doesn't really exist to any extent other than as a misunderstanding of the market data.

Quote:
This thread is clearly about whether CCP should change the game so that manufacturing items with a meta level less than 5 is viable, and how they could do that.
…and the point is that they're already viable. I'm not saying he should trade anything so I have no idea where you got that idea — I'm saying he should buy his materials cheaply.

And again, I will repost supposedly known information as often as I like if it is apparent that the information is not know, especially since doing so is highly relevant to the discussion at hand. Just because you know something (which obviously doesn't include what I have said or posted) doesn't mean that everyone does so how about you pipe down a bit about not informing people who don't share your knowledge.

Quote:
nope, he's still saying he wants ccp to open a pizza place in town, and nothing's on fire.
Quoth Natsett “(jumping around, screaming in agony as his body is consumed in flame): ************ I NEEDS SOME WATER!!!!!!!”
So no, he's saying his house is on fire. I'm saying he should open his eyes and study the reality of the situation, most notably what's on the menu…
Vanyr Andrard
VacuumTube
#80 - 2012-10-26 00:36:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
No. If I mean that T1 is fine since it's basically only a component like any other these days, and that named modules are not competing with T1 because they either don't divert any sales or because they have different uses completely (and I do),


If meta1-4 didn't exist, than everyone without the skills to use the T2 item would end up using meta0 items. Your quote above contradicts this. There's no point continuing a discussion any further with someone who won't argue honestly. Good luck remaining in the thread to spread your lies, for whatever reason motivates you to do so.