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Substantially decrease the mineral needs of BP's?
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Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#21 - 2012-10-25 18:07:19 UTC
Felicity Love wrote:
Quite a profit in T1, "meta 0", GALLENTE Fuel Blocks these days... or did the OP not get the internal memo ? Blink


That is a huge lie. Due to the rise in isotope prices, you make less profit on gallante than amarr.

Perhaps if you mine your own ice, but you would risk losing your ship to the goons, leading to an increased cost that the extra 1% profit made by making fuel blocks would be harder to cover. If you have gallante isotopes, better to sell them on the market, buy helium or other isotopes and make other fuel for 10% more profit.

Or... Better yet, use the robotics and mechanical parts to make t2 weapon upgrades. Turn your coolant to ticket fuel instead and make t2 missiles and profit more.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-10-25 18:18:48 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
That's not an excuse for having NPC loot that is better than what industrialists can build, also have a minimum value far below the player made item.
It's not an excuse. It's just a fact that makes it a non-issue (well, that and the existence of T2).

Quote:
This isn't supply and demand.
Yes it is. The reason it's cheaper is because there is a massive supply and/or very little demand (most likely “and”). If they were strictly better and correspondingly used more, they would be more expensive. They aren't because they aren't as much in demand as T1 modules.

Zimmy Zeta wrote:
About the only tech 1 product you can manufacture for pofit is ammo.
…and ships and quite a few modules, especially the more advanced ones.


Arbalest torbedo laucher, Today so far sold 1500+

Torpedo launcher 2, today sold 272.

Torpedo 1 launcher, today sold 263

Jita.

T1 items are in more demand than T2.


Can anyone explain what the purpose of having the worst items being made by players.
I do not believe that the purpose of T1 items is to build T2 items.

You would think that industrialists would want their stuff to actually sell better.

The market is based almost entirely on NPC loot. How is this cool with people that are constantly throwing the "it's a sandbox" excuse around to support their desired playstle?
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#23 - 2012-10-25 18:19:23 UTC
Tippia wrote:


Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Um... The reason I am not buying your t1 launcher to make my t2 ones is because I can make t1s just as cheap as you do.
…and in doing so you waste production slots on stuff that makes very little difference for your margin and which robs you of a much larger profit margin. Once you get the volume up, it's quite easy to get to a point where it's better to just buy all the T1 crap.


For me, buying isn't worth it. It's 2 days to make the items I need for 10 days of production. I can't copy and invent at a fast enough rate due to my limited number of indy toons and the fact that I like to pvp instead of cycle inventions every 1.5 hours. I could get help, but then I split costs. So for me, and many other lower level manufactorers, it is cheaper to make my own.

Additionally, we are getting into the realm of how much isk per hour per slot makes oneself happy. True, I could go crazy, math it out, and maximize my profit per slot hour. However, I don't enjoy that. I do enough to fund my pvp and grow my wallet well enough. I don't tend to one isk war or try to setup buy orders to get building materials cheaper. I do know enough to check ky math first and make sure I profit after factoring in datacores, etc. Still on average 500k per mod made is enough to make me quiet happy.
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#24 - 2012-10-25 18:24:20 UTC
Torp launchers are a horrible item to pick.

T2 fitting requirements are brutal. Even with perfect fitting you will have troubke getting 3 t2 launchers, cloak, and bomb on a bomber. Arbalast are much more forgiving there.

Additionally, it's 3-4 weeks training time between arbs and t2. So yeah, t2s don't sell as much because the demand is lower.

And again, part if this springs from ccp listing the value of an item. Before that change, many newer players would sell arbs at a very low price or not at all and just reprocess them. Ccp listing the value in your inventory changed that and greatly reduced the costs of meta loot.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-10-25 18:26:49 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Tippia wrote:


Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Um... The reason I am not buying your t1 launcher to make my t2 ones is because I can make t1s just as cheap as you do.
…and in doing so you waste production slots on stuff that makes very little difference for your margin and which robs you of a much larger profit margin. Once you get the volume up, it's quite easy to get to a point where it's better to just buy all the T1 crap.


For me, buying isn't worth it. It's 2 days to make the items I need for 10 days of production. I can't copy and invent at a fast enough rate due to my limited number of indy toons and the fact that I like to pvp instead of cycle inventions every 1.5 hours. I could get help, but then I split costs. So for me, and many other lower level manufactorers, it is cheaper to make my own.

Additionally, we are getting into the realm of how much isk per hour per slot makes oneself happy. True, I could go crazy, math it out, and maximize my profit per slot hour. However, I don't enjoy that. I do enough to fund my pvp and grow my wallet well enough. I don't tend to one isk war or try to setup buy orders to get building materials cheaper. I do know enough to check ky math first and make sure I profit after factoring in datacores, etc. Still on average 500k per mod made is enough to make me quiet happy.


It still doesn't justify why the most in demand items in the game are supplied by mission, ratter, and complex runners.

If it's to ensure that they're making enough isk, CCP can always change mission payouts.

Doddy
Excidium.
#26 - 2012-10-25 18:31:14 UTC
Why shouldn't they be tbh? All someone building t1 mods is doing is making ore that appeared out of thin air into a mod from an npc bpo. There is pretty much no difference.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#27 - 2012-10-25 18:32:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Arbalest torbedo laucher, Today so far sold 1500+

Torpedo launcher 2, today sold 272.

Torpedo 1 launcher, today sold 263

Jita.

T1 High Meta items are in more demand than T2.
…because of fitting requirements, skill requirements, and because you've picked a module that has a very peculiar (read: not representative) use pattern. Bombers fit meta launchers because T2 take too much space, and the only ships where T2 launchers fit and make sense is the Golem, which sucks. In addition, the ships that fit the meta launchers are used in PvP, where they pop with some frequency, whereas the ships that fit the T2 launchers are not and do not. So that's pretty much to be expected.

Oh, and Arbalests costs hell of a lot more than T1s, so they don't really illustrate your point that well in that regard either.

Quote:
Can anyone explain what the purpose of having the worst items being made by players.
Universal availability. It may be worse, but there's no chance that you'll run out. It's much the same as Meta 4 vs. Meta 5.

Quote:
I do not believe that the purpose of T1 items is to build T2 items.
It is these days. Hell, if low-meta items are that cheap, their purpose is also to build T2 items.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-10-25 18:33:30 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Torp launchers are a horrible item to pick.

T2 fitting requirements are brutal. Even with perfect fitting you will have troubke getting 3 t2 launchers, cloak, and bomb on a bomber. Arbalast are much more forgiving there.

Additionally, it's 3-4 weeks training time between arbs and t2. So yeah, t2s don't sell as much because the demand is lower.

And again, part if this springs from ccp listing the value of an item. Before that change, many newer players would sell arbs at a very low price or not at all and just reprocess them. Ccp listing the value in your inventory changed that and greatly reduced the costs of meta loot.


Every NPC dropped EM armor hardener sells 50x more than the player made one in jita, and about 2x more than the T2 version.


Why must it be that the NPC loot one is better than the player made one?
What's wrong with it being the other way around?
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#29 - 2012-10-25 18:34:29 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Tippia wrote:


Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Um... The reason I am not buying your t1 launcher to make my t2 ones is because I can make t1s just as cheap as you do.
…and in doing so you waste production slots on stuff that makes very little difference for your margin and which robs you of a much larger profit margin. Once you get the volume up, it's quite easy to get to a point where it's better to just buy all the T1 crap.


For me, buying isn't worth it. It's 2 days to make the items I need for 10 days of production. I can't copy and invent at a fast enough rate due to my limited number of indy toons and the fact that I like to pvp instead of cycle inventions every 1.5 hours. I could get help, but then I split costs. So for me, and many other lower level manufactorers, it is cheaper to make my own.

Additionally, we are getting into the realm of how much isk per hour per slot makes oneself happy. True, I could go crazy, math it out, and maximize my profit per slot hour. However, I don't enjoy that. I do enough to fund my pvp and grow my wallet well enough. I don't tend to one isk war or try to setup buy orders to get building materials cheaper. I do know enough to check ky math first and make sure I profit after factoring in datacores, etc. Still on average 500k per mod made is enough to make me quiet happy.


It still doesn't justify why the most in demand items in the game are supplied by mission, ratter, and complex runners.

If it's to ensure that they're making enough isk, CCP can always change mission payouts.



No they can't. Only a small portion of all mission runners loot. Many just burn through, relying on speed and bounties alone to make their income. If you raise the isk payout, more isk is thrown into the economy. As counter-intuitive as it sounds, that is bad. Extra isk means people will pay more, increasing the cost of items for every one.

Look at plex prices recently. One group (faction warfare farmers) gained a huge increase in isk. They in turn spent that on plex, driving the price up (supply stated the same), which lead to an inflated market. So really, just throwing isk at the problem isn't the solution.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#30 - 2012-10-25 18:34:37 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Why must it be that the NPC loot one is better than the player made one?
Funnily enough, the player-made one is better.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-10-25 18:35:37 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Arbalest torbedo laucher, Today so far sold 1500+

Torpedo launcher 2, today sold 272.

Torpedo 1 launcher, today sold 263

Jita.

T1 High Meta items are in more demand than T2.
…because of fitting requirements, skill requirements, and because you've picked a module that has a very peculiar (read: not representative) use pattern. Bombers fit meta launchers because T2 take too much space, and the only ships where T2 launchers fit and make sense is the Golem, which sucks. In addition, the ships that fit the meta launchers are used in PvP, where they pop with some frequency, whereas the ships that fit the T2 launchers are not and do not. So that's pretty much to be expected.

Oh, and Arbalests costs hell of a lot more than T1s, so they don't really illustrate your point that well in that regard either.

Quote:
Can anyone explain what the purpose of having the worst items being made by players.
Universal availability. It may be worse, but there's no chance that you'll run out. It's much the same as Meta 4 vs. Meta 5.

Quote:
I do not believe that the purpose of T1 items is to build T2 items.
It is these days. Hell, if low-meta items are that cheap, their purpose is also to build T2 items.


I just picked the torp at random.

Would it be a bad thing for my T1 items to actually be better than the NPC dropped stuff?
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-10-25 18:36:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Tippia wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Why must it be that the NPC loot one is better than the player made one?
Funnily enough, the player-made one is better.

Actually most of the NPC vaiants on modules are better.

That NPC dropped torpedo launcher sells for almost 400k isk in jita.
The player made one? 52k
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-10-25 18:42:53 UTC
I don't see how making meta 0 stuff cheaper would have any major impact. Even if there was a difference between 400k ISK for a Meta 4 item and 40k ISK for a meta 0, the playermade Meta 0 woould still not sell in any meaningful quantities. The problem is how much ISK is in player hands these days. I don't care if i have to pay 400k instead of 40k when i can make a conservative 20m ISK/hour in highsec.

So, imo changing the BPOS to produce T1 stuff cheaper won't do anything. In the case of ships i'd argue the other way round actually. Stuff needs to be more expensive. Like... factor 10 or something. Losing a battleship needs to mean more than having to run missions for 5 hours to get the money back. Stuff is worth nothing at the moment and that is the biggest problem that EVEs market faces right now. CCP can tweak and change all they want, as long as they don't find a way to close up all the ISK fountains and simultanously find a way to slowly drain the wallets of the players, the player market will always be fundamentally broken.

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#34 - 2012-10-25 18:44:54 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Torp launchers are a horrible item to pick.

T2 fitting requirements are brutal. Even with perfect fitting you will have troubke getting 3 t2 launchers, cloak, and bomb on a bomber. Arbalast are much more forgiving there.

Additionally, it's 3-4 weeks training time between arbs and t2. So yeah, t2s don't sell as much because the demand is lower.

And again, part if this springs from ccp listing the value of an item. Before that change, many newer players would sell arbs at a very low price or not at all and just reprocess them. Ccp listing the value in your inventory changed that and greatly reduced the costs of meta loot.


Every NPC dropped EM armor hardener sells 50x more than the player made one in jita, and about 2x more than the T2 version.


Why must it be that the NPC loot one is better than the player made one?
What's wrong with it being the other way around?


In this case, supply and demand. Npc loot is less common. T1 meta 0 are not. T2 makers flood the market too much keeping yheir price too low.

You want in on the windfall, switch to trading. Find a place wher you cam put up a low buy orde for the npc meta loot, transport to jita and sell.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#35 - 2012-10-25 18:45:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Actually most of the NPC vaiants on modules are better.
Sure, if you start including the deadspace and officer mods. But most use the player-made one as the base point of comparison and the standard for any fit.

Quote:
That NPC dropped torpedo launcher sells for almost 400k isk in jita.
The player made one? 52k
…so in other words, it matches supply and demand — just as player-made as the modules themselves.

Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Would it be a bad thing for my T1 items to actually be better than the NPC dropped stuff?
It wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference.

At this point, T1 items are simply components. Their price in relation to named modules is pretty much irrelevant because the use cases are radically different. What matters is T2, which is player made, commonly balanced just fine against meta-4 in terms of bang for your buck, and which offers the benefit of being easily reproduced to balance out the (usually) worse fitting reqs.

For T1 producers, the existence of named mods is largely inconsequential. Their actual problem lies with the ”minerals I mine is free” morons.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-10-25 18:49:39 UTC
Beckie DeLey wrote:
I don't see how making meta 0 stuff cheaper would have any major impact. Even if there was a difference between 400k ISK for a Meta 4 item and 40k ISK for a meta 0, the playermade Meta 0 woould still not sell in any meaningful quantities. The problem is how much ISK is in player hands these days. I don't care if i have to pay 400k instead of 40k when i can make a conservative 20m ISK/hour in highsec.

So, imo changing the BPOS to produce T1 stuff cheaper won't do anything. In the case of ships i'd argue the other way round actually. Stuff needs to be more expensive. Like... factor 10 or something. Losing a battleship needs to mean more than having to run missions for 5 hours to get the money back. Stuff is worth nothing at the moment and that is the biggest problem that EVEs market faces right now. CCP can tweak and change all they want, as long as they don't find a way to close up all the ISK fountains and simultanously find a way to slowly drain the wallets of the players, the player market will always be fundamentally broken.


I want it the other way around.

The stuff players make should be better than the stuff dropped off of NPC's. We shouldn't make meta 0 stuff, we should be making the meta 4 stuff.
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-10-25 18:50:56 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

The stuff players make should be better than the stuff dropped off of NPC's. We shouldn't make meta 0 stuff, we should be making the meta 4 stuff.


That ... actually makes a lot of sense.

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.
Vanyr Andrard
VacuumTube
#38 - 2012-10-25 18:52:01 UTC
OP: T0 items are worse than meta items, so no one uses them. Why have useless T0 items in the game at all?

Respondents, mainly Tippia: T0 items are worse than meta items.


OP: Yes, that was the first thing I said, why are you just mindlessly repeating part of my sentences but not addressing my main point?

Tippia: T0 items are worse than meta items.




*slowclaps*
Doddy
Excidium.
#39 - 2012-10-25 18:54:38 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


Would it be a bad thing for my T1 items to actually be better than the NPC dropped stuff?


Well yes, someone actually had to do something to get the npc one.
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#40 - 2012-10-25 18:55:57 UTC
Beckie DeLey wrote:
I don't see how making meta 0 stuff cheaper would have any major impact. Even if there was a difference between 400k ISK for a Meta 4 item and 40k ISK for a meta 0, the playermade Meta 0 woould still not sell in any meaningful quantities. The problem is how much ISK is in player hands these days. I don't care if i have to pay 400k instead of 40k when i can make a conservative 20m ISK/hour in highsec.

So, imo changing the BPOS to produce T1 stuff cheaper won't do anything. In the case of ships i'd argue the other way round actually. Stuff needs to be more expensive. Like... factor 10 or something. Losing a battleship needs to mean more than having to run missions for 5 hours to get the money back. Stuff is worth nothing at the moment and that is the biggest problem that EVEs market faces right now. CCP can tweak and change all they want, as long as they don't find a way to close up all the ISK fountains and simultanously find a way to slowly drain the wallets of the players, the player market will always be fundamentally broken.



You can't have a negative isk flow. Too many people will get bored of constant ratting/missioning to replace losses. You need a fair balance so the majority of us who enjoy pvp can spend tome killing instead of covering ship losses.

Look, I've been in RvB 3 times. The first two times were fun, but costly. I had to spend more time missioning/grinding for isk to cover my losses. This 3rd time, I fly cheaper and make ample with my indy alts. I get far more enjoyment out of the game this way. If I had to work constantly to replace losses, eve becomes a job and people stop playing. Ccp doesn't want that either.

I was in nul. It sucked for me. We were in constant cta/deployment, limited time to make funds, and our alliance lacked funds for a ship replacement program. Eve became a job, it sucked. I moved out.

Now, I have my fun, make some extra isk so my wallet grows, and want to keep playing becausr in a few years i can fly and lose some caps without turning eve back to a job.

Again, that is the real balance needed in eve. A slow growth of the wallet that lets you build to future plans without turning eve into a job. A constant slow wallet drain would **** too many off and kill the fun.