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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Faction Warfare - Same As It Ever Was

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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#161 - 2012-11-01 20:12:03 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Having one side physically travel to the other sides' systems creates content.


If you can run content in your own system for 0-75% LP, or the system next door for 100% LP, where do you predict players will be running their plexes?

Still not getting what is behind that idea. First you create a problem (defensive plexing) and upon realising it is bound to fail (farmed to oblivion) the solution is to dig the hole even deeper by implementing a solution so artificial it can compete in a Hollywood Most Plastic Surgery pageant.

Remove defensive LP.
Allow defensive timer to auto-run after being 'touched', say 30s on site needed.
Reset timer (the auto-run part) if enemy spends a similar 30s on site (total time for minor becomes 10.5 mins).

D-LP was such a boneheaded idea to begin with after the infinite-farm created by O-LP .. turds will still be a turd even you flip it over and/or give it a coat of paint.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#162 - 2012-11-01 20:18:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
X Gallentius wrote:
Most of our guys prefer the defensive plexes over offensive because 1) require less effort, time, and resources (afk atron for example) 2) they are less likely to meet resistance, and 3) the LP payout is still very high.


Exactly my point, players migrate to the activity with the most amount of isk for the least amount of effort. Right now the farmers flock to defensive plexing because it is easier. If it becomes equally challenging as offensive plexing, profit than becomes the defining factor in where they go.

Quote:
You can receive as much LP running a 40% contested defensive plex afk at Tier 4 than you can by running an offensive plex at Tier 2. The offensive plex required a properly fit ship. Which player is creating content? Which one should be rewarded more?


To be fair, this is more of an issue with Tier scaling in general, than whether or not rats attack you in d-plexes. But I maintain that if AFK plexing in atrons for decent isk is bad for offensive plexing, its bad for defensive plexing too. I think most players whether you are in FW or not realize why being able to orbit buttons and collect isk without having to play the game is bad. Why do you think FW has been a joke all summer?

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#163 - 2012-11-01 20:21:11 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

Exactly my point, players migrate to the activity with the most amount of isk for the least amount of effort.
Therefore we both agree that paying for defensive plexing discourages conflict because rather than going out and intermixing with the opponent, many players will decide to hang out in their home systems and defensive plex for their isk??

Quote:

To be fair, this is more of an issue with Tier scaling in general, than whether or not rats attack you in d-plexes. But I maintain that if AFK plexing in atrons for decent isk is bad for offensive plexing, its bad for defensive plexing too. I think most players whether you are in FW or not realize why being able to orbit buttons and collect isk without having to play the game is bad. Why do you think FW has been a joke all summer?

Fair enough. One idea would be to remove the tier scaling for defensive plexing.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#164 - 2012-11-01 20:22:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Exactly my point, players migrate to the activity with the most amount of isk for the least amount of effort.
That wasn't your point at all. Your assumption was that players would migrate to the most amount of ISK, no matter the hassle.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
If you can run content in your own system for 0-75% LP, or the system next door for 100% LP, where do you predict players will be running their plexes?


Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Why do you think FW has been a joke all summer?
Tier scaling, period. Which is why it will continue to be a joke.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#165 - 2012-11-01 20:23:15 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Having one side physically travel to the other sides' systems creates content.


If you can run content in your own system for 0-75% LP, or the system next door for 100% LP, where do you predict players will be running their plexes?

Still not getting what is behind that idea. First you create a problem (defensive plexing) and upon realising it is bound to fail (farmed to oblivion) the solution is to dig the hole even deeper by implementing a solution so artificial it can compete in a Hollywood Most Plastic Surgery pageant..


Its called piling error on top of error. You won't find a better example of it than CCPs work in faction war.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#166 - 2012-11-01 20:24:50 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Its called piling error on top of error. You won't find a better example of it than CCP and Hans' work in faction war.
Fixed that for you.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#167 - 2012-11-01 20:26:45 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Fair enough. One idea would be to remove the tier scaling for defensive plexing.


I can see that working out as a possible solution to the issue.

Quote:
That wasn't your point at all. Your assumption was that players would migrate to the most amount of ISK, no matter the hassle.


If that were the case than everyone in highsec would be fielding Hulks instead of Mackinaws. But by all means, keep putting words in my mouth. Roll

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#168 - 2012-11-01 20:29:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Quote:
That wasn't your point at all. Your assumption was that players would migrate to the most amount of ISK, no matter the hassle.
If that were the case than everyone in highsec would be fielding Hulks instead of Mackinaws. But by all means, keep putting words in my mouth.
How am I putting words in your mouth? I'm quoting you. Two people called you out on exactly what you wrote.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#169 - 2012-11-01 20:33:40 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Its called piling error on top of error. You won't find a better example of it than CCP and Hans' work in faction war.
Fixed that for you.



I'm warning you. If you aren't properly obsequious to Hans, he won't talk to you, and lots of minmatar will get all huffy.Sad

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#170 - 2012-11-01 20:36:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
sperg
Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#171 - 2012-11-01 20:43:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Deen Wispa
X Gallentius wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

Exactly my point, players migrate to the activity with the most amount of isk for the least amount of effort.
Therefore we both agree that paying for defensive plexing discourages conflict because rather than going out and intermixing with the opponent, many players will decide to hang out in their home systems and defensive plex for their isk??

Quote:

To be fair, this is more of an issue with Tier scaling in general, than whether or not rats attack you in d-plexes. But I maintain that if AFK plexing in atrons for decent isk is bad for offensive plexing, its bad for defensive plexing too. I think most players whether you are in FW or not realize why being able to orbit buttons and collect isk without having to play the game is bad. Why do you think FW has been a joke all summer?

Fair enough. One idea would be to remove the tier scaling for defensive plexing.


Not sure what XG is going on about. If people want action, they simply go to a system where players are trying to offensive plex and fight them. Caldari was trying to off plex Martoh for a week and people got tons of fights out of it...or at least the EU folks did. Now they're trying to plex systems near the Prism area, and people can go there if they choose to roam.

Just as us, we are trying to offensive plex certain systems and we get action too; Eugales, Vey, etc...

Other than the first week of the patch, where we all deplexed like crazy to stabilize warzone control, I don't see players from any of the major Gal Mil HQs sitting at home trying to deplex. Why? Because we don't need to deplex because it's not being farmed by all the alt farmers.

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#172 - 2012-11-01 20:49:37 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
Not sure what XG is going on about. If people want action, they simply go to a system where players are trying to offensive plex and fight them. .
Players in afk atrons should not be rewarded because doing so discourages conflict. Reward players who create content, not those who destroy it.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#173 - 2012-11-01 22:24:24 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Players in afk atrons should not be rewarded because doing so discourages conflict. Reward players who create content, not those who destroy it.


I'd much rather we just get rid of AFK atrons completely.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#174 - 2012-11-01 22:37:58 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Players in afk atrons should not be rewarded because doing so discourages conflict. Reward players who create content, not those who destroy it.


I'd much rather we just get rid of AFK atrons completely.


There are other (better) ways to do that beside npcs.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#175 - 2012-11-01 23:30:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Cearain wrote:
There are other (better) ways to do that beside npcs.


Yes. Rixx Javixx. Unfortunately he cannot be everywhere at once, he is but one man.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#176 - 2012-11-01 23:39:51 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Cearain wrote:
There are other (better) ways to do that beside npcs.


Yes. Rixx Javixx. Unfortunately he cannot be everywhere at once, he is but one man.


Getting warmer. At least you aren't turning to npcs.

Hint: People aren't running plexes everywhere. If only we knew ....

But alas I didn't see any mention of those sorts of plans for winter.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#177 - 2012-11-02 00:05:11 UTC
The real problem is not with LP, Tiers, Rats or Plexes.

It is with the players. If you join FW to make isk - your motivation is wrong.

At lowest Tier you still make more than you need - I don't care if the Minnies or Gals make 4x more because I can still afford a million merlins or Cormos without even trying.

Change you mindsets and stop thinking of FW as another income stream.

Who really cares if farmers farm. Even at Tier1 forever I will still stay. It makes no difference if I have 2 Bil or 20 bil because I will still never run out of ships to fly.

Greed should not be why you are here so stop crying if someone in another Militia makes more isk than you. It really makes no difference how much their wallet has in it.


I like the afk atrons - they are spawning all the rats so that I can kill them in one hit and then AFK the plex button. TY gunless atrons for making FW plexes afkable so soon after the patch. Every cloud has a silver lining. :)

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#178 - 2012-11-02 15:32:56 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
The real problem is not with LP, Tiers, Rats or Plexes.

It is with the players. If you join FW to make isk - your motivation is wrong....

True, but ... when the difference in relative earnings is as pronounced as CCP wants it to be, the PvP'ers on the 'down' side are effectively pushed out as there is no way in hell you can go up against faction kit using only T1.

There is a difference in having to spend precious time to get the bling and having a broken vending machine spitting it out to every man, woman and child.

So while those are not the direct problem, they are very much contributing to it.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#179 - 2012-11-02 16:33:25 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
The real problem is not with LP, Tiers, Rats or Plexes.

It is with the players. If you join FW to make isk - your motivation is wrong.

At lowest Tier you still make more than you need - I don't care if the Minnies or Gals make 4x more because I can still afford a million merlins or Cormos without even trying.

Change you mindsets and stop thinking of FW as another income stream.

Who really cares if farmers farm. Even at Tier1 forever I will still stay. It makes no difference if I have 2 Bil or 20 bil because I will still never run out of ships to fly.

Greed should not be why you are here so stop crying if someone in another Militia makes more isk than you. It really makes no difference how much their wallet has in it.


I like the afk atrons - they are spawning all the rats so that I can kill them in one hit and then AFK the plex button. TY gunless atrons for making FW plexes afkable so soon after the patch. Every cloud has a silver lining. :)



To carry on war, three things are necessary:
1) money,
2) money, and
3)yet more money.

- Gian Jacopo Trivulzio

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#180 - 2012-11-02 16:36:18 UTC
After the patch, T1 cruisers will be extremly overpowered. All you need to even things up a bit is a little bit of isk, leadership, leadership, and leadership.

I'm personally looking forward to stomping on people with T1 cruiser gangs with T1 logi.

.