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Case Study: Ice Fields: High Sec vs Low Sec
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Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#1 - 2012-10-22 22:31:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Val'Dore
Disclaimer: I respectfully request that this topic be discussed with all seriousness with no trolling or harassment. I know this is the EvE Forum, so I also know that this community is on average more mature than most other MMO communities. I request that ISD keep this thread on track. Dissenting and counter opinions don't have to be ad hominem.


The MEAT and POE-TATE-TOES:

Now, I don't mean to be rude, but I'm going to bring up a subject that is both hot and heavy, much like my pregnant wife. As everyone knows, Ice Fields are a controversial thing in EvE, especially with the Goon Anti-Freeze Campaign.

Ice is not profitable. Not even a smidgen, you lose massive loads of ISK just warping to an Ice Belt in a Barge. Even the GAFC can't change that.

So how do we make Ice profitable?

How do we cash in on this massive POS Fuel market?

How will removing Ice from 0.5+ affect the Ice Market?

What will such a change do to the POS Fuels Market?

Would any change to the Ice Supply be workable?

Would industrious corporations and players shift to low sec to mine Ice?

What would such a change do to the Mineral and Ore markets when the 99% refuse to leave high sec to mine Ice?

What would Low Sec Ice Mining do to the Barge and Exhumer Market?

Would the blow back from AFKbears be sufficient reason to not make this shift?

How would this affect players that gank Ice Miners? Would it be a positive change?

How will this affect the Low Sec Piracy population?

How will this affect the Low Sec Anti-Piracy population?

If Ice is moved to Low Sec only, what about exploration based Ice Belts that deplete or have limited duration?

Who does High Sec Ice benefit most?

Who does High Sec Ice benefit least?

Who would Low Sec Ice benefit most?

Who would Low Sec Ice benefit least?

Would you stand to benefit from Low Sec Ice? Why or Why not?

How would Low Sec Ice affect or be affected by Faction Warfare?

What is your overall opinion on a shift of all Ice Fields from High Sec to Low Sec? Please be verbose.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#2 - 2012-10-22 22:36:38 UTC
I like the idea of making static ice low only. ice in highsec should be ice grav sites.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#3 - 2012-10-22 22:37:54 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
I like the idea of making static ice low only. ice in highsec should be ice grav sites.


I'll modify that into the OP, forgot all about that possibility.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#4 - 2012-10-22 22:53:22 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:

Ice is not profitable. Not even a smidgen, you lose massive loads of ISK just warping to an Ice Belt in a Barge.
So how do we make Ice profitable?

Why does ice have to be profitable?
Who cares if ice is profitable?

If you mine it for profit, you're an idiot and bad luck. No change needed.
If you mine it for your POS then who cares what it costs. No change needed.

It is not an issue. Why are people are making it so?

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Ginger Barbarella
#5 - 2012-10-22 22:54:53 UTC
... bored now...

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-10-22 22:58:14 UTC
Making the supply less than the demand will make ice valuable so that means removing it entirely from highsec as highsec generates the largest amount of ice products.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2012-10-22 23:00:43 UTC
That's... a lot of questions.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James 315
Experimental Fun Times Corp RELOADED
CODE.
#8 - 2012-10-22 23:00:51 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:
Disclaimer: I respectfully request that this topic be discussed with all seriousness with no trolling or harassment.

Request denied.

The whole "ice in highsec" thing must be regarded as a failed experiment. Let's get those ice fields out of highsec and into low/null right away. Smile

MinerBumping.com
Mirima Thurander
#9 - 2012-10-22 23:03:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mirima Thurander
I support moving all ice to low sec, and leaving a few grav ice sites in high sec.

I all so support moving all ore to scanning grav sites besides basic low yeald belts near nooby systems.

All that change would do is make people have to look for belts.

I never under stood how these belts held never ending ammounts of roids.


But as fun as that would make eve i dont see it ever getting done.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-10-22 23:10:24 UTC
After today's dev blog, there will be plenty of frozen tears in low sec. Mine those.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#11 - 2012-10-22 23:10:40 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
I support moving all ice to low sec, and leaving a few grav ice sites in high sec.

I all so support moving all ore to scanning grav sites besides basic low yeald belts near nooby systems.

All that change would do is make people have to look for belts.

I never under stood how these belts held never ending ammounts of roids.


But as fun as that would make eve i dont see it ever getting done.


I'd add that those rookie belts require an acceleration gate that only frigs can use.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#12 - 2012-10-22 23:11:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
James 315 wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:
Disclaimer: I respectfully request that this topic be discussed with all seriousness with no trolling or harassment.

Request denied.

The whole "ice in highsec" thing must be regarded as a failed experiment. Let's get those ice fields out of highsec and into low/null right away. Smile

Let's put it another way.

Many of us probably went to university/college etc. The reason we went was so that when we started to earn money we could ask for higher paid jobs and better conditions. We made an effort, we were rewarded for our efforts.

Many chose not to go to university because it was too much effort. In return for the lack of effort they have poor conditions and low wages.

Ice mining is the easiest and most mundane task in Eve requiring very little effort. The low price is the reward for that effort.

If we make ice mining profitable in any way we are rewarding the lazy, we are rewarding bots. The Goons themselves haven't even worked this out.

In fact, I suggest we make ice an absolute garbage commodity and be done with it.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#13 - 2012-10-22 23:22:41 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:

Why does ice have to be profitable?


Touche, I suppose it doesn't really have to be. I mean, it is in my interest to keep POS Fuel costs as low as they can be.

Quote:
Who cares if ice is profitable?


Who cares if building Hurricanes is profitable? I mean, as a venture capitalist and entrepreneur, I want everything to be profitable :p

Quote:
If you mine it for profit, you're an idiot and bad luck. No change needed.


Well I don't, so I'm not *whew*.

Quote:
If you mine it for your POS then who cares what it costs. No change needed.


Well, sort of true. Right now it is better to mine something else and just buy the fuels. Not that that is a bad thing per se. But that is why this is a case study. To discuss what would happen if the change were to happen. Not whether it should or not.

Quote:
It is not an issue. Why are people are making it so?


Everything is always an issue at any given time. The variable is how many people talk about it at the same time.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#14 - 2012-10-22 23:25:16 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
If we make ice mining profitable in any way we are rewarding the lazy, we are rewarding bots. The Goons themselves haven't even worked this out.


So, you think moving all Ice to Low Sec and/or Exploration Sites would be reward the lazy and/or bots? Maybe my int implant failed, but I think you have that backward.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Herr Hammer Draken
#15 - 2012-10-22 23:29:43 UTC
Obviously ice mining is still paying enough to plex bot accounts. If Ice got cheap enough that bots could no longer plex accounts while mining it then things would change on a natural course. What I do not understand is why an active miner would care about ice being so cheap? Just go and mine ore that pays better isk/hour and buy your ice from the market. You come out ahead with isk and do not have to fight in the ice fields with the bots and ganks. It is a win/win situation.

Or if some game mechanic allowed players to steal from the bots while they were mining the ice. So that they could possibly come back empty after botting all day. That could also cause them to stop botting as they would not earn enough isk to plex the account anymore. Some mechanic that would play to being active as a miner as opposed to bot mining.

The thing is under current rules making ice more profitable will only encurage more bots. So I understand the drive to move ice to low sec and null sec which makes the bots no longer safe mining ice. But that is not the only way to handle this.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Speaker for TheDead
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#16 - 2012-10-22 23:33:36 UTC
Your first mistake is to assume that anyone aside from you cares about the ice fields or fail "Ice-interdictions"

Most people are completely unaffected by this little mini-game, and probably don't even know it's an issue. Shocked

"Inception date: [u]Expired[/u]."
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#17 - 2012-10-22 23:34:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Val'Dore
It isn't the Ice itself that is my concern. The trickle down effects are.

Speaker for TheDead wrote:
Your first mistake is to assume that anyone aside from you cares about the ice fields or fail "Ice-interdictions"

Most people are completely unaffected by this little mini-game, and probably don't even know it's an issue. Shocked



I don't make assumptions... do I have to explain 'case study'?

I'm unaffected by the current Shenanigoons in any case. I just don't feel bashful about bringing up a topic when it just happens to be a little popular at the time.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#18 - 2012-10-22 23:41:40 UTC
I live in a gumdrop fantasy world which I would like all my game mechanics to be... well, a game. No matter how profitable or unprofitable a mechanic may be, it should have some entertaining value no matter your particular position on the totem pole. Right now, Ice and ore is just a root canal. You don't want one, but at times it's simply necessary. Since Ice and ore are necessary to almost everything else in the game, there should be varying degrees of complexity associated with it. Right now, its just a single droll mechanic with varying degrees of "how often should I pay attention?".
Location changes would help its profitability. Actually It would undoubtedly skyrocket. Yet that's all it would change. It's still a dull menial task which breeds bots or bot like behavior within the game.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#19 - 2012-10-22 23:42:16 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
If we make ice mining profitable in any way we are rewarding the lazy, we are rewarding bots. The Goons themselves haven't even worked this out.


So, you think moving all Ice to Low Sec and/or Exploration Sites would be reward the lazy and/or bots? Maybe my int implant failed, but I think you have that backward.

Nope. I'm spot on because I'm looking at the end result.

The assumption being that no ice-miner will risk a 200m ship for ice at any price. A few would be able to but fewer would. Supply will snap, ice prices will go through the roof and ice will be put back into highsec or Eve collapses.

(From memory, ice was once not available or taken out of highsec? It was put in (or put back) - someone might be able to answer this.)

The easiest solution is to reduce supply. Finite ice and less fields. Toughen rats considerably so yield fits die. The effects will push-back on price.



"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#20 - 2012-10-22 23:44:58 UTC
Speaker for TheDead wrote:
Your first mistake is to assume that anyone aside from you cares about the ice fields or fail "Ice-interdictions"

Most people are completely unaffected by this little mini-game, and probably don't even know it's an issue. Shocked


This ^^

Warped a cloaky into a team of 3 macks on a field in a 0.5 an hour or so ago.

Decloaked for a laugh. No-one moved.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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