EVE General Discussion

Do you really think that Goons have no bearing on the issues that null players are faced with as a whole?

Either you didn't read it, or you don't understand how supply&demand works.

"-Increased cost for everything, period"
Cost is determined by supply and demand. Supply is determined by the number of miners and mining yield. If the yield is adjusted appropriately for the lower number of miners, then if the rest stays the same, prices stay the same.

"-No increased income for many people, nearly everyone"
If 'many people' are the non-miners: no, this OBVIOUSLY doesn't increase their income. The (remaining) miners however, do increase their income because higher yield at the same mineral prices (see above), means more profit.

This profit will in return determine the amount of people mining. This feedback loop will make it a bit harder for CCP to adjust the yield correctly in one go, without further adjusting.

"-Increased logistics to move minerals to high sec, should manufacturers stay there, not sure if your suggestions are intended to be accompanied by a massive nerf to high sec manufacturing as well"
There there are already plenty freighters moving minerals all over empire. Though we'll likely see at least some degree of a more decentralized production in EVE. However this is NOT a nerf to manufacturing at all, but rather the opposite. Now there are simply a few 'Wall-Mart' producers driving everyone's profit into the ground in Jita, which might be nice for consumers now, but hurts the game in the long run.

If the market becomes more decentralized, yes, people can expect a bit higher prices, but there will also be more opportunities for people to make a decent profit as well, so in the end increased costs and increased income even out.[

And wouldn't you like it if you didn't have to fly all the way to Jita every time you need something?

"-Increased cost for security, and for the daring: ship replacement, for anyone dumb enough to mine in low sec"
Increased income for mining will make taking risks in low-sec worth it. It's simply a matter of risk vs. (appropiate) reward in which hiring security (or people for exploration) can be afforded and losing ships is a calculated risk. Low-sec exploration is an example of a good risk vs. reward ratio in action.

Though currently the excessive capital power-projection of bored null pilots into low-sec is still problematic for bigger scale low-sec mining, but that's a separate problem which should be fixed by an increase in jump-mechanic fuel consumption.

"-Increased cost due to people unsubbing (less miners=less supply). There are various reasons that people would refuse to mine this way. "
I seriously doubt many will unsub over this. It took Incarna to actually make players actually unsub (I know, I managed the list tracking them). The people hit hardest by this are the bots (having trouble with the more dynamic nature of grav mining) and the damage they cause to the game is not worth their subscription money (and CCP thinks so too).

The remaining miners will celebrate the increased income through increased yield, even the ones doing exploration mining or moving to desolate regions. The lazy AFK miners will simply switch to ICE, but why should the game cater to them?

"-Null alliances would either have mandatory mining ops, or would charge renters fees or something, for miners to have access to their new found valuable resource, thus increasing the cost. Have a look at tech moons if you'd like to see how valuable resources are handled on the bloc level."
Uhm... renters already pay fees. Or, in fact a lot of the renting income from alliances is through the 'we take' tax on refining and those renters are going to refine a lot more now with the increased yield. And even if alliances will do CTA mining ops, the increased yield means it would be a lot more efficient then it is now. I don't see what moons have to do with any of this.

"The increase in yield you suggest only addresses the issue of supply. There are other issues that affect the cost of the minerals."
I suggest you name a few of these 'other issues' what would cause your 'massive inflation'. The major reasons of inflation in EVE are supply (stays the same through adjustment of the yield), demand (obviously says the same), increase of ISK in the economy (has mining zero influence on) and speculation (which is likely to happen anyway but will be of temporary effect).

Added costs like logistics, security and ship-loss are mostly covered by the increased individual income for miners, so I wouldn't expect this to influence the prices too much (though it does give players more opportunity to make money).

Your 300M Hurricane won't happen, guaranteed.

Not every industialist cowers in fear of a little risk.

I think that the corp that built the 5th largest trade hub, that also exists in null, and is probably the most industrialist friendly corp and alliance in EVE is an example how to do things right. As well as a perfect example of how, even when you do things right, industry in null needs a lot of help.

A lot of you still haven't figured out that small scale corp holdings in null, isn't how you do it. Null is EMPIRE building. In order to build a real industrial base, providing a place were industrialists can build and sell, requires an incredibly large number of people to have access and do business in your station.

You can't have a Jita or any other high sec trade hub if the space is fractured and warred over continuesly by small groups. It's like some of you are dismissing or can't figure out that it takes a large number of people for things to work in null.

Not to mention the number of times I point out that my life in null is not typical of most people life in null. Small, unorganized alliances will never build a real industrial base.

You can keep complaining and boiling things down to "well everything would be fine if my little corp could actually live in null sec", as if not being surrounded by a large group of friends is somehow better for your corp.

Keep on with the "the blue blob is the problem nothing works" as if that blue blob isn't the reason VFK is the 5th largest trade hub. Keep telling yourselves that goons dimplomacy, and desire to maintain some amount of order in null is actually worse than everyone flying around shooting everyone, and no one able to do any form of industry.

CCP knows it as much as goons do, goons and the blue blob are why null sec in the north is thriving. We actively bring people here and try and make it fun so that they stay here. As a goon industrialist I'm all about more people who play in high sec having null as a worthwhile consideration to come to, live in, and play in null. Just like the guys that pvp want more people to come here for the pvp, I want more people to come here for the non pvp stuff. That will never happen if null sec has no stability, or if there is never any incentive to actually come here.

Know what null sec looks like when you don't have people working together in an orgainized structure that encourages more people to play in null? The south.

If you want to do industry in null, the best place to do it is goon space, period. And I still have no worthwhile reason to give to a high sec inustrialist as to why they should come here as apposed to staying in high sec were they can make far more isk doing the exact same thing.

The only way to thin the gap between high and null earning potential is to get more people playing here. PvP isn't a good enough reason and for many industrialists it's not even a factor. There needs to be worthwhile incentives, not "it's pretty much the same as high sec industry, but you make a LOT less here." that it basically is today.

7th largest trade hub you mean, basically tied for that spot as well.

It does a whopping 1/48th of the largest high sec hub. less than 1/3 of Hek.

It is still quite an accomplishment none the less.

Now I knew the stuff you wrote in your post already, it just doens't seem that you did when you claimed "A bunch of crap that has no bearing on the issues that null players are faced with as a whole. " when someone said something bad about your precious goons. OFC goons have tons to do with null sec, that you'll admit to, when it comes to positive and glamorous things.

" is probably the most industrialist friendly corp and alliance in EVE"

That was cute though, I'm sure all those freighter pilos, hulk pilots, mackinaw pilots that had the luxury of having their ships suicide ganked would definately agree that the goonswarm is probalby the most industrialist freindly corp and/or alliance in eve.

If you goons actually think that your friendly, you are greatly detached from popular opinion among people that aren't part of goons. I mean that in a sense of your actions in game in general, not that people that are part of goonswarm are actually bad people or w/e.

It's not as dangerous as you think. If you can, take a loot at how many times I've been blown up. I can count it on one hand, in almost a year. Naturally, your mileage may vary depending on were in null you're living.

Anyone got the numbers for how many mining ships are destroyed in what parts of space. I have a feeling people might be suprised.

Slots available usually has more to do with the corp than a conditioiin of it being null. The corp has to make the slots available.

Your stuff can get blown up in high sec just as easy as null. High sec doesn't make your PoS any safer then null, and in fact it's at more risk in high sec were a corp can't really control who can and can't enter the system.

Taking all that into consideration stilld doesn't make it worthwhile, does it?

You don't need to kill industry in high to improve null, that's simply demonstrating an unwillingness to consider options because you either don't care or think that any option would ultimately "hurt" you. You can make it more worthwhile to do industry in null without destroying high sec.

Not at all. I completely respect that there are a lot of different players in this game who want to play differently. There are guys who just want to station trade and never undock and I think that's cool and I'm glad they are in the game enriching it for all of us.

I just dont think that there should be a safe industrial zone where you can get great rewards for very little risk. I think risk and reward should balance in all professions, if you want great rewards you should take great risk.

What this post is about is risk creates the opportunities for the industrialists to manufacture stuff so they should be in favour of it.

Nope. What I said are Goons are shitting up highsec because they're bored at home. I've never asked for and nor do I expect "CCP interference" - except for them to fix null so you all have better things to do with your time.

I DO understand your problems - not arguing the problems. It's your solution/s that suck!!

You're bored at home because everyone is blue. There used to be reds all over - you've killed or are in the process of killing them all. Mittani himself said there are no targets. I ask, whose fault is that?

Heaps of people ARE in null but they're all blue - THAT'S the problem. Making null better just means MORE BLUE. It's NOT going to solve the lack of targets.

The solution is to find a way to contract the empires so more people can use the space.

The blob rules OK. You know that, I know that, everyone knows that.

But no-one is prepared to fall on their sword to fix it - and that includes The Mittani - who is running around telling EVERYONE ELSE what's good for THEM to fix HIS problems.

Good luck finding a loan as a nub or making use of jump freighters and bridges in highsec.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

"your bored at home because everyone is blue". How the **** does that have anything to do with doing industry in null? As a dedicated industrialist, everyone not blue would be boring, I'd have far fewer potential people to sell to.

Let me say it again for you.
The blob is not preventing you from coming to null, it's what makes null work. No blob, means no industry in null. When you see people making a fuss about things like, not enough slots or resources, it's usually because they aren't a part of a blob. In order to have a blob, you need to be orgainized, and you need to supply that blob, and you can't supply everything by importing from high. You can NOT import everything that is needed in goon space, it's not possible.

If it sells in jita, odds are it sells in VFK, and the ONLY REASON that that is possible, is due to the blob you're complaining about.

You're making correlations between things that have nothing to do with each other. The more blue in goon space, the better for me. Me, the guy actually here doing this stuff, and you keep insisting that the blues are my problem. Are you ******* serious?

And WTF?
Some of you are so obviously clueless to life here. Blue doens't always mean hand shakes and hugs, sometimes it just means a mutually agreed upon coarse of interaction. The guys that set the standings know full well that most people NEED other people to shot at, and people actually work together to ensure that people have other people to shoot at in null.

You're trying to simply things that aren't that simple, and making it clear that you do not live in goon space and don't really know what it's like. There are always people to shoot at here.

Our ORGANIZED high sec ganking has NOTHING to do with boredom or lack of people to shoot at.