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Fleets Vs. blobs
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Kaylyis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-10-21 05:49:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaylyis
So what's the dividing line here?

At what point does a fleet become a blob? What's the deciding factor?

I have an opinion, but I'm more interested in the commentary of people who've actually participated in PvP fleet fights.

For the purpose of the argument, "any time you're simply outnumbered," shall be considered a cop-out answer, since fleet engagements historically have depended on either having numbers, or by having your enemy so outclassed tech-wise or tactically that he never stood a chance.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#2 - 2012-10-21 05:56:40 UTC
Kaylyis wrote:
So what's the dividing line here?

At what point does a fleet become a blob? What's the deciding factor?

I have an opinion, but I'm more interested in the commentary of people who've actually participated in PvP fleet fights.

For the purpose of the argument, "any time you're simply outnumbered," shall be considered a cop-out answer, since fleet engagements historically have depended on either having numbers, or by having your enemy so outclassed tech-wise or tactically that he never stood a chance.


A fleet becomes a blob when the losers of an engagement feel the need to blame something other than their inability to make allies and tactical deficiencies.

And no, during the war up north last year when giant fleets of titans were stomping around and threatening Deklein, I was in many fleets that fought outnumbered and accomplished all strategic objectives.
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#3 - 2012-10-21 05:57:18 UTC
One uses the resources of an Alliance.
The other abuses the resource of lagg.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#4 - 2012-10-21 05:58:56 UTC
Ioci wrote:
One uses the resources of an Alliance.
The other abuses the resource of lagg.


TiDi.
Kaylyis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-10-21 06:03:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaylyis
Akirei Scytale wrote:

And no, during the war up north last year when giant fleets of titans were stomping around and threatening Deklein, I was in many fleets that fought outnumbered and accomplished all strategic objectives.


This statement actually illustrates part of what Im curious about. Since it's possible to take ****-tons of losses and still achieve objectives when one is prepared to do so.

My understanding, limited as it is is that a fleet is a mixed variety of ships in support of one another, caps supported by battleships, battleships supported by cruisers and all supported by recon/tacklers and cyno ships.

My idea of a blob is a massive glob of ships of either the same ship type or class with little to no variation that pretty much use the "if you can't fix it with a hammer, get a bigger hammer" approach. all alphaing the same target rather than having coordinated heirarchies with individual objectives.

Kinda like in starcraft when you make like 500 hydralisks and roll them out across the map all at once.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#6 - 2012-10-21 06:07:53 UTC
There is one main defining factor between "fleet" and "blob": order.

50 people following FC orders and having the exact ships/fits asked for will resemble a fleet. The same 50 dudes just camping a gate on a friday night with their favorite ships would look like a blob.

Of course, when severely outnumbered, even the most organized fleet will look like a blob since you can hardly notice the difference.

When you accuse someone of "blobbing", you are essentially saying they are throwing quantity over quality at you.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#7 - 2012-10-21 06:12:32 UTC
If you lose to a fleet larger than yours, they were a blob.

If you beat a fleet larger than yours, you were a fleet.

It's a simple comparison, that only falls apart at the point that the fleets are equal size, at which the loser will invoke one of the other complaints of EVE such as "BECAUSE OF FALCON" or "they had more logistics than a sensible fleet would bring."

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#8 - 2012-10-21 06:12:43 UTC
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
There is one main defining factor between "fleet" and "blob": order.

50 people following FC orders and having the exact ships/fits asked for will resemble a fleet. The same 50 dudes just camping a gate on a friday night with their favorite ships would look like a blob.

Of course, when severely outnumbered, even the most organized fleet will look like a blob since you can hardly notice the difference.

When you accuse someone of "blobbing", you are essentially saying they are throwing quantity over quality at you.


That is a classic misunderstanding. You'd be hard pressed to find a 750 man fleet not following the FC's orders and reacting personally to appropriate circumstances.

Honestly, the best FCs attract the biggest fleets, and the biggest fleets I've ever been on moved like damn schools of fish, with extreme precision.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-10-21 06:13:17 UTC
i enjoy blobbing

supernumeracy 4 lyfe

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#10 - 2012-10-21 06:16:31 UTC
Kaylyis wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:

And no, during the war up north last year when giant fleets of titans were stomping around and threatening Deklein, I was in many fleets that fought outnumbered and accomplished all strategic objectives.


This statement actually illustrates part of what Im curious about. Since it's possible to take ****-tons of losses and still achieve objectives when one is prepared to do so.

My understanding, limited as it is is that a fleet is a mixed variety of ships in support of one another, caps supported by battleships, battleships supported by cruisers and all supported by recon/tacklers and cyno ships.

My idea of a blob is a massive glob of ships of either the same ship type or class with little to no variation that pretty much use the "if you can't fix it with a hammer, get a bigger hammer" approach. all alphaing the same target rather than having coordinated heirarchies with individual objectives.

Kinda like in starcraft when you make like 500 hydralisks and roll them out across the map all at once.


I didn't say we lost the battles :).

I've been in fleets that fought outnumbered and straight up slaughtered the opposing fleet, and I've been in fleets that accomplished all objectives while losing on the field. This is a large part of why TEST and Goonswarm are so damn successful in their wars - unlike nearly every other alliance in EVE, members don't give a rats ass about K/D ratios, they care about winning the actual war. When denying station systems to an opposing force, losing a fleet or two is a small price for completely denying their ability to stage. In most other alliances, that would be a morale-killing "KB is red" moment that would cause everyone to think "OH GOD WE'RE LOSING!" without seeing the big picture.
Kaylyis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-10-21 06:16:38 UTC
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
There is one main defining factor between "fleet" and "blob": order.

50 people following FC orders and having the exact ships/fits asked for will resemble a fleet. The same 50 dudes just camping a gate on a friday night with their favorite ships would look like a blob.

Of course, when severely outnumbered, even the most organized fleet will look like a blob since you can hardly notice the difference.

When you accuse someone of "blobbing", you are essentially saying they are throwing quantity over quality at you.


I always found the arguments of some of the accusations of blobs to be a bit shallow. I thought the point of engaging in a battle was being willing to do whatever you had to to make sure you win and the enemy's sending their people home in caskets bathed with tears.

past that, the only thing I really feel like commenting on i anecdotal accusations of blobs of supercaps hundreds-strong. that seems a bit... cheesedicky even in the context of my previous statement. Buuuut. I can't say I've been on the giving or recieving end of that particular thing, hence why I call them anecdotal accusations. So its hard for me to say much constructive there until I've actually participated in a fight to kill a cap, much less dozens, or hundreds.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#12 - 2012-10-21 06:16:56 UTC
A fleet is where the FC calls you by your name.

A blob is where the FC calls out ship types.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#13 - 2012-10-21 06:18:59 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
A fleet is where the FC calls you by your name.

A blob is where the FC calls out ship types.



I've been on a 750 man fleet where the FC would call people out by name, FYI.

"x up for ___"

"Ok Johnny McDoe, I need you ____ doing ____".

Your definition is bad and you should feel bad.
Kaylyis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-10-21 06:21:31 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:


I didn't say we lost the battles :).

I've been in fleets that fought outnumbered and straight up slaughtered the opposing fleet, and I've been in fleets that accomplished all objectives while losing on the field. This is a large part of why TEST and Goonswarm are so damn successful in their wars - unlike nearly every other alliance in EVE, members don't give a rats ass about K/D ratios, they care about winning the actual war. When denying station systems to an opposing force, losing a fleet or two is a small price for completely denying their ability to stage. In most other alliances, that would be a morale-killing "KB is red" moment that would cause everyone to think "OH GOD WE'RE LOSING!" without seeing the big picture.


I think you and I are agreeing and arguing about how each of us came to the same conclusion here. Basically I said if yer prepared to suck losses (I meant casualties, not battles, or strategic objectives) means you're better prepared to win. Your comment here is pretty much why I think killboards are ********, and has always been the primary reason why I think they do more harm than good to the overall schema of the game.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#15 - 2012-10-21 06:22:11 UTC
Kaylyis wrote:
I can't say I've been on the giving or recieving end of that particular thing, hence why I call them anecdotal accusations.


It happens.

It also backfires.
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#16 - 2012-10-21 06:39:54 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Ioci wrote:
One uses the resources of an Alliance.
The other abuses the resource of lagg.


TiDi.


Time Dilation doesn't remove client side lagg brought on by blobbing.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#17 - 2012-10-21 06:45:46 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
A fleet is where the FC calls you by your name.

A blob is where the FC calls out ship types.



I've been on a 750 man fleet where the FC would call people out by name, FYI.

"x up for ___"

"Ok Johnny McDoe, I need you ____ doing ____".

Your definition is bad and you should feel bad.

FC's I remember (all but one) called everyone moron, lemming, &^%$# and $#@&^and *&^#@

Best FC for that was one of your pets alliance leaders.

So yeah, by A name sure.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#18 - 2012-10-21 06:47:34 UTC
My alliance had a discussion about this awhile ago.

You are merely "outnumbered" when the enemy brings 2 ships for everyone 1 of yours. You are "blobbed" when the enemy brings more than 3+ ships per 1 of yours.

Then we broke it down...

Ewar ships count as 2 "people."
You add 0.5 a person for every ship class above your fleet's average class.

How did you Veterans start?
Kaylyis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-10-21 06:55:18 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
My alliance had a discussion about this awhile ago.

You are merely "outnumbered" when the enemy brings 2 ships for everyone 1 of yours. You are "blobbed" when the enemy brings more than 3+ ships per 1 of yours.

Then we broke it down...

Ewar ships count as 2 "people."
You add 0.5 a person for every ship class above your fleet's average class.


Modern military doctrine is that the ideal engagement ratio is 3/1 in your favor. thats a major factor in my "fleet vs. blob" theory.

Not calling you wrong, though, I consider it a theoretical or philosophical disagreement unbacked by experience in fleet battles on my part.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-10-21 07:06:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
These questions never have a correct answer and is totally dependent on your point of view.
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