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a real AFK cloaking solution
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Sellsoul Antixian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-10-21 00:45:47 UTC
how about a way to scan down cloaked ships? combat probes that scan down covert ops ships that are cloaked? why cant that be made? make it take a few minutes even at maxed skills.. and once a covert ops ship is found warp to it and make it lockable in the ui only if scanned down. once locked it decloaks. that will end the afk greifing bullshit that happens in nul sec every single day. i think its reasonable.
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#2 - 2012-10-21 01:07:39 UTC
I don't think any activity in Nullsec is worth the term "griefing".
Mirima Thurander
#3 - 2012-10-21 02:09:02 UTC
Sellsoul Antixian wrote:
how about a way to scan down cloaked ships? combat probes that scan down covert ops ships that are cloaked? why cant that be made? make it take a few minutes even at maxed skills.. and once a covert ops ship is found warp to it and make it lockable in the ui only if scanned down. once locked it decloaks. that will end the afk greifing bullshit that happens in nul sec every single day. i think its reasonable.

Would it make.you feel better if he did not show upon your local?

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Sellsoul Antixian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-10-21 03:50:03 UTC
Would it make.you feel better if he did not show upon your local?



if i wanted that luxury id move into a WH.. i think they should see whos in a system just as i should see if theyre in the same system i am in. give me one reason why scanning down a covert ops ship would be a bad idea? it would speed up PVP, it would make scouting more important they just cant sit and wait for a dummy to undock something shiney, it doesnt eliminate the possibility of hot dropping.. it makes the game faster.. if covert ops didnt show up in local then nul sec becomes unfunctioning..
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#5 - 2012-10-21 04:54:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Sellsoul Antixian wrote:

if i wanted that luxury id move into a WH..

if you want the luxury of having no afk cloakers, move into WH.
You love your local chat - fine, then accept it being used both ways, there is nothing wrong with that.


afk cloaking is fine.
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-10-21 05:07:36 UTC
You could also use the search function and see that there is 100's of pages of arguments written about the very idea that you propose. Please refer to those to find out why it is a bad idea.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2012-10-21 05:35:55 UTC
Sellsoul Antixian wrote:
Would it make.you feel better if he did not show upon your local?



if i wanted that luxury id move into a WH.. i think they should see whos in a system just as i should see if theyre in the same system i am in. give me one reason why scanning down a covert ops ship would be a bad idea? it would speed up PVP, it would make scouting more important they just cant sit and wait for a dummy to undock something shiney, it doesnt eliminate the possibility of hot dropping.. it makes the game faster.. if covert ops didnt show up in local then nul sec becomes unfunctioning..

Why is it a bad idea? the whole point of a cloak is to not be found, and probes that can find them pretty much emans you may as well just remove cloaks form the game,a s they will become useless, ships that fit cloaks giev up a good chunk of fitting space (and a high slot) to do so, and the ships that are DESIGNED for cloaks, are not very powerful even in 1v1 combat, so you would essentially be turning anyone in a cloak into a free kill.
Staleward Ad'mraa
F-I-N-K PROPERTY
#8 - 2012-10-21 06:03:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Staleward Ad'mraa
A good way to keep this from being an over-powered function designed to search system wide, why not limit to the area you are in, which means those hunting for the ship will have to fly to the area. This means within 100 k/ms of the ship, you will be able to ping the cloaked ship which brings it to the overview, once that is done you are able to lock on and attack it.

Radar Ping Module
Description: Designed to send and receive radio waves for picking up solid or cloaked objects in space. Not the most powerful radar out there, it is limited only to the strength of sensor.

Tier 1 Range
10 k/ms to 40 k/ms

Tier 2 Range
40 k/ms to 70 k/ms

Tier 3 Range
70 k/ms to 100 k/ms

This will allow for players to be able to hunt for those hidden cloaked ships, but at the cost of putting themselves in danger of the cloaked ship use an surprise tactic. Sensor strength can be increased by skills, equipment, rigs, subsystems, and ship advantages which can mean dedicated logistic ships which can easily be destroyed. Only way players should be safe is that they are inside a station or inside a PoS, no module should have a huge advantage as this.

Should design an Skill for this type of radar, meaning players must actively study this skill like all other counter-measures out there for other modules.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#9 - 2012-10-21 06:15:21 UTC
Staleward Ad'mraa wrote:
A good way to keep this from being an over-powered function designed to search system wide, why not limit to the area you are in, which means those hunting for the ship will have to fly to the area.

Congrats... now covert-ops ships that are legitimately spying on fleet and/or stealth bombers that are setting up bombing runs will be located.

As has been said many times by so many... no one has come up with a way to nerf afk-cloaking tactics without nerfing "legitimate" cloaking tactics.

Afk-cloakers will sit in a deep space safe spot. Legitimate cloakers will be on grid watching their enemies.

Also... do a search. AFK-cloaking is done because of local's infallibility in knowing who's there.

How did you Veterans start?
Staleward Ad'mraa
F-I-N-K PROPERTY
#10 - 2012-10-21 06:19:05 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Staleward Ad'mraa wrote:
A good way to keep this from being an over-powered function designed to search system wide, why not limit to the area you are in, which means those hunting for the ship will have to fly to the area.

Congrats... now covert-ops ships that are legitimately spying on fleet and/or stealth bombers that are setting up bombing runs will be located.

As has been said many times by so many... no one has come up with a way to nerf afk-cloaking tactics without nerfing "legitimate" cloaking tactics.

Afk-cloakers will sit in a deep space safe spot. Legitimate cloakers will be on grid watching their enemies.

Also... do a search. AFK-cloaking is done because of local's infallibility in knowing who's there.


Why don't you contribute and debate instead of trolling? It helps improves the game instead of putting everyone down. Legitimate cloakers are even worse, because they can actually spy and give information to enemy fleet without any danger of them being destroyed at all. There needs to be a counter regardless if you feel you should have god-mode in an massive fleet combat.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#11 - 2012-10-21 06:33:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
I am debating. The problem for you is that I simply don't agree that cloaking needs to be nerfed. It's hard enough to take on massive fleets and kill randoms in 0.0 space (because as soon as a single non-blue appears in local, everyone docks up and/or summons the 1000 man horde).
Stealth Bombers and covert tactics are one of the few things that smaller groups can use to fight back.

edit:
Quote:
Legitimate cloakers are even worse, because they can actually spy and give information to enemy fleet without any danger of them being destroyed at all.

So jump through the gate, set up bubbles, and let your interceptors kill the cloaking ship following you. Or split up your fleet and send it to another system so the cloaking ship gives bad intel.

How did you Veterans start?
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-10-21 06:41:46 UTC
Staleward Ad'mraa wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Staleward Ad'mraa wrote:
A good way to keep this from being an over-powered function designed to search system wide, why not limit to the area you are in, which means those hunting for the ship will have to fly to the area.

Congrats... now covert-ops ships that are legitimately spying on fleet and/or stealth bombers that are setting up bombing runs will be located.

As has been said many times by so many... no one has come up with a way to nerf afk-cloaking tactics without nerfing "legitimate" cloaking tactics.

Afk-cloakers will sit in a deep space safe spot. Legitimate cloakers will be on grid watching their enemies.

Also... do a search. AFK-cloaking is done because of local's infallibility in knowing who's there.


Why don't you contribute and debate instead of trolling? It helps improves the game instead of putting everyone down. Legitimate cloakers are even worse, because they can actually spy and give information to enemy fleet without any danger of them being destroyed at all. There needs to be a counter regardless if you feel you should have god-mode in an massive fleet combat.


He did contribute, just because he didn't agree with you doesn't mean it's trolling.

Fact of the matter is that any anti cloaking tool will invariably effect area's of the game that you may not want effected. 'Legitimate cloaking' is a tricky term and it really depends on who says it as to what it means.

To me legitimate cloaking includes many things;

- Cloaking to move through or avoid gatecamps.

- Cloaking to safe up in hostile space where logging out isn't an option.

- Cloaking to watch an area/object/person for extended periods of time.

- Cloaking to deny resources to an enemy.

Staleward, you may think that legitimate cloaking ruins the game, you may be really dense, or you may be trolling. Either way if you feel that other people don't have the right to tell you how to play Eve, who do you think you are to then turn around and tell those very people how they should play.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#13 - 2012-10-21 06:51:40 UTC
Staleward Ad'mraa wrote:

Why don't you contribute and debate instead of trolling? It helps improves the game instead of putting everyone down. Legitimate cloakers are even worse, because they can actually spy and give information to enemy fleet without any danger of them being destroyed at all. There needs to be a counter regardless if you feel you should have god-mode in an massive fleet combat.


Why don't you contribute rather then rant and rave about how cloaking has no counter, when all you have to do to counter cloaking is look at a little box labeled "local"?

Sure, you're not killing him. But you know he's there just by doing that. How am I supposed to sneak up on you when you know I'm there thanks to your uber OP instawin intel tool, A.K.A local?

And now, just because you glanced at your free intel tool, local, you know that I'm there and can scan me down for free, because cloaking shouldn't be a legitimate tactic.


I'm really getting sick and tired of seeing these threads pop up. They're going on about a problem that only exists to bother them BECAUSE OF LOCAL.

Nerf local, then we can talk.
Sellsoul Antixian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2012-10-21 06:56:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Sellsoul Antixian
Staleward Ad'mraa wrote:
A good way to keep this from being an over-powered function designed to search system wide, why not limit to the area you are in, which means those hunting for the ship will have to fly to the area. This means within 100 k/ms of the ship, you will be able to ping the cloaked ship which brings it to the overview, once that is done you are able to lock on and attack it.

Radar Ping Module
Description: Designed to send and receive radio waves for picking up solid or cloaked objects in space. Not the most powerful radar out there, it is limited only to the strength of sensor.

Tier 1 Range
10 k/ms to 40 k/ms

Tier 2 Range
40 k/ms to 70 k/ms

Tier 3 Range
70 k/ms to 100 k/ms

This will allow for players to be able to hunt for those hidden cloaked ships, but at the cost of putting themselves in danger of the cloaked ship use an surprise tactic. Sensor strength can be increased by skills, equipment, rigs, subsystems, and ship advantages which can mean dedicated logistic ships which can easily be destroyed. Only way players should be safe is that they are inside a station or inside a PoS, no module should have a huge advantage as this.

Should design an Skill for this type of radar, meaning players must actively study this skill like all other counter-measures out there for other modules.



i like this. it gives cloakers the ability to be hunted but still can remain in systems for extended periods of time if they at least keep moving.. thats all i want is force the cloakers to at least be at their keyboards what wrong with that? its not right that one red in a system goes AFK means that i dock for 5 days.. to be honest i think the range should be a little bit farther than what you have but still a cloaker can BM a spot some 4km away from the sun in a random direction and still never be found even with the ability to scan your areas but **** its a start
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#15 - 2012-10-21 07:10:39 UTC
Sellsoul Antixian wrote:
Staleward Ad'mraa wrote:
A good way to keep this from being an over-powered function designed to search system wide, why not limit to the area you are in, which means those hunting for the ship will have to fly to the area. This means within 100 k/ms of the ship, you will be able to ping the cloaked ship which brings it to the overview, once that is done you are able to lock on and attack it.

Radar Ping Module
Description: Designed to send and receive radio waves for picking up solid or cloaked objects in space. Not the most powerful radar out there, it is limited only to the strength of sensor.

Tier 1 Range
10 k/ms to 40 k/ms

Tier 2 Range
40 k/ms to 70 k/ms

Tier 3 Range
70 k/ms to 100 k/ms

This will allow for players to be able to hunt for those hidden cloaked ships, but at the cost of putting themselves in danger of the cloaked ship use an surprise tactic. Sensor strength can be increased by skills, equipment, rigs, subsystems, and ship advantages which can mean dedicated logistic ships which can easily be destroyed. Only way players should be safe is that they are inside a station or inside a PoS, no module should have a huge advantage as this.

Should design an Skill for this type of radar, meaning players must actively study this skill like all other counter-measures out there for other modules.



i like this. it gives cloakers the ability to be hunted but still can remain in systems for extended periods of time if they at least keep moving.. thats all i want is force the cloakers to at least be at their keyboards what wrong with that? its not right that one red in a system goes AFK means that i dock for 5 days.. to be honest i think the range should be a little bit farther than what you have but still a cloaker can BM a spot some 4km away from the sun in a random direction and still never be found even with the ability to scan your areas but **** its a start


I'm sorry, but I thought the idea was to nerf AFK cloaking. This won't help that at all, and will in fact break legitimate uses of cloaking. Oh, you're scouting us out by actually getting in there and trying? We'll ping you out. You're sitting in some random safespot that it would literally take us CENTURIES of travel in the fastest interceptor in a straight line to find, let alone a slower moving "pinging" ship designed to find cloaky ships? Yeah, you're perfectly safe.

Be honest, you probably got rocked by somebody who's Falcon alt you didn't see, and now you want to be able to see if they have a Falcon on grid. You don't even care about AFK cloaking.
Or you got hotdropped by a cloaky that slowboated to just inside the perfect range and hotdropped you. Yeah, hotdropping, cyno's, and bridges are a different issue entirely. Not just tied in to cloaking.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#16 - 2012-10-21 13:44:56 UTC
The answer is not to advocate for a one sided solution, but a balanced answer that embraces the reason why AFK cloaking exists to begin with.

Never forget, this tactic of AFK cloaking evolved as a response to local chat's flawless intel reporting.

It is unreasonable to expect something as powerful as local chat's intel to not have a counter-force balancing it.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Sellsoul Antixian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-10-21 14:34:50 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Sellsoul Antixian wrote:
Staleward Ad'mraa wrote:
A good way to keep this from being an over-powered function designed to search system wide, why not limit to the area you are in, which means those hunting for the ship will have to fly to the area. This means within 100 k/ms of the ship, you will be able to ping the cloaked ship which brings it to the overview, once that is done you are able to lock on and attack it.

Radar Ping Module
Description: Designed to send and receive radio waves for picking up solid or cloaked objects in space. Not the most powerful radar out there, it is limited only to the strength of sensor.

Tier 1 Range
10 k/ms to 40 k/ms

Tier 2 Range
40 k/ms to 70 k/ms

Tier 3 Range
70 k/ms to 100 k/ms

This will allow for players to be able to hunt for those hidden cloaked ships, but at the cost of putting themselves in danger of the cloaked ship use an surprise tactic. Sensor strength can be increased by skills, equipment, rigs, subsystems, and ship advantages which can mean dedicated logistic ships which can easily be destroyed. Only way players should be safe is that they are inside a station or inside a PoS, no module should have a huge advantage as this.

Should design an Skill for this type of radar, meaning players must actively study this skill like all other counter-measures out there for other modules.



i like this. it gives cloakers the ability to be hunted but still can remain in systems for extended periods of time if they at least keep moving.. thats all i want is force the cloakers to at least be at their keyboards what wrong with that? its not right that one red in a system goes AFK means that i dock for 5 days.. to be honest i think the range should be a little bit farther than what you have but still a cloaker can BM a spot some 4km away from the sun in a random direction and still never be found even with the ability to scan your areas but **** its a start


I'm sorry, but I thought the idea was to nerf AFK cloaking. This won't help that at all, and will in fact break legitimate uses of cloaking. Oh, you're scouting us out by actually getting in there and trying? We'll ping you out. You're sitting in some random safespot that it would literally take us CENTURIES of travel in the fastest interceptor in a straight line to find, let alone a slower moving "pinging" ship designed to find cloaky ships? Yeah, you're perfectly safe.

Be honest, you probably got rocked by somebody who's Falcon alt you didn't see, and now you want to be able to see if they have a Falcon on grid. You don't even care about AFK cloaking.
Or you got hotdropped by a cloaky that slowboated to just inside the perfect range and hotdropped you. Yeah, hotdropping, cyno's, and bridges are a different issue entirely. Not just tied in to cloaking.





ive never been hot droped as i am not that stupid. its about game balance and one person should not have the ability to shut a whole system down by being Away From Keyboard. how about we all train bombers and all go sit in a nul sec system? know what happens then? nul sec becomes non functioning. put a little more effort into your kills. the ability to scan down covert ops cloakers would not hurt the game at all. Nikk i like the idea of creating a balanced answer to the situation were debating. and i ask again please give me one good reason why a skill that allows you to launch probes to scan down covert ops cloaks would be a bad idea? heres an idea.. make covert ops scanners show up system wide that way the cloaker will be able to move and avoid being scanned down? the whole idea i have is to keep the players at the keyboard. thats all. to log in to a char, cloak up, go have brunch with mom catch a movie with the g/f ride a bike for a couple miles go to the gym eat dinner watch the game ISNT PLAYING EVE. the idea of a game is to PLAY it. let there be a reason to keep someone who is undocked at their computer. why is that a bad thing????
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#18 - 2012-10-21 14:55:12 UTC
Sellsoul Antixian wrote:

ive never been hot droped as i am not that stupid. its about game balance and one person should not have the ability to shut a whole system down by being Away From Keyboard.

its not the person shutting down an entire system, its you and your fear of loosing ships to that person. Loosing ships is a part of eve, accept that or just avoid that cloaker if you are really that afraid of lossmails. Not that there is just 1 system in eve you can do something.

Sellsoul Antixian wrote:
how about we all train bombers and all go sit in a nul sec system? know what happens then? nul sec becomes non functioning

but fact is its not happening, because afk cloaking comes at huge costs and is boring as ****, simply because people can avoid you easily.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#19 - 2012-10-21 21:55:31 UTC
Sellsoul Antixian wrote:
ive never been hot droped as i am not that stupid. its about game balance and one person should not have the ability to shut a whole system down by being Away From Keyboard. how about we all train bombers and all go sit in a nul sec system? know what happens then? nul sec becomes non functioning. put a little more effort into your kills. the ability to scan down covert ops cloakers would not hurt the game at all. Nikk i like the idea of creating a balanced answer to the situation were debating. and i ask again please give me one good reason why a skill that allows you to launch probes to scan down covert ops cloaks would be a bad idea? heres an idea.. make covert ops scanners show up system wide that way the cloaker will be able to move and avoid being scanned down? the whole idea i have is to keep the players at the keyboard. thats all. to log in to a char, cloak up, go have brunch with mom catch a movie with the g/f ride a bike for a couple miles go to the gym eat dinner watch the game ISNT PLAYING EVE. the idea of a game is to PLAY it. let there be a reason to keep someone who is undocked at their computer. why is that a bad thing????
AFKers cannot stop you from ratting, mining, using stargates, activating modules, docking, undocking, etc. etc. Never have, never will. The only one stopping you, is you. Period.

Being able to scan cloaked ships, means even more intel power on top of the already powerful local intel channel. That is not a balanced approach and that alone makes it a bad idea.

If you want any changes to cloaks, then local should be changed to stop the 100%, risk free, instant intel tool it is now.
As it stands local gives it's intel, without any effort, 23.5/7. That is guaranteed, whereas the psychological effects from AFKing are not.

So it's not a new idea, it makes the game very unbalanced in favour of the blob, makes local intel overpowered and only panders to those seemingly unwilling to take precautions. So that means it most certainly is, a bad thing.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Johnny Bloomington
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-10-21 22:41:59 UTC
AFK cloakers are not a problem. Why do these threads keep popping up? Scary AFKers.

CCP wish list: show damage on ships and open that door!
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