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Okay CCP, it's time. Acknowledge the legitimacy of The New Order, James 315, and bumping.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#161 - 2012-10-22 10:06:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Only emergent hi sec player I have seen this year is Solstice Project. He brings a new dimension to hi sec in his Thrashers.

James 315 has emerged only in the sense that he managed to convince otherwise conservative investors into giving him 13B.
Technically it's more of a "cinema ticket" than an investment.
A fairly expensive ticket, considering the minimal efforts required to get a Stabber.

Prolonged bump + racket is something I have witnessed (and fought against by supporting an anti-gank corp) since 1+ years ago, it's really nothing new under the sun.

Even his presence imo is somewhat too limited. Some of my alts currently live in one of his "new order" systems, I don't see a real "new order", some annoyance at best.

New order was when Bat Country would make tabula rasa for 23/7. THAT was emergent game play, in the sense nobody else would create such effective and prolonged activities.

Overall, once let the loud self emperor declaring words, I find that the capsuleers cemetery or even the EvE RL charity fund are more emergent than this.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#162 - 2012-10-22 10:07:27 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:
Ramming causes damage to both ships and is treated as an attack. Problem solved.

Now this would still allow a "bumper" to push a miner into another miner. But that would take a) a skill which is not currently required and b) people to be brain dead or afk.



Great idea. I'll just sit outside Jita 4-4 and watch the fireworks.


How could that be a bad thing? EvE economy needs constant destruction.

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Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#163 - 2012-10-22 10:09:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
I don't care about the economy. That can diafirl too for all I care :D

Oh god.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#164 - 2012-10-22 10:09:54 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
What is this i don't even...

Honestly, I don't know. But sounds like a request for highly visible literacy campaign concerning EULA terms and rules of the game. Preferably with those "one-time eve announcements" on login screen.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Farbs
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#165 - 2012-10-22 11:22:23 UTC
I'm amazed to see how much attention some unimportant guy gets on the forums based on the fact that he manages to be slightly annoying in one out of hundreds of systems.

I'm also somewhat amused by the "OMG IT'S A SANDBOX GAME" crew, and the indignation and rage they show when someone disagrees with THEIR ways of playing in the sandbox. Hai Solstice.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#166 - 2012-10-22 11:44:33 UTC
Farbs wrote:
I'm amazed to see how much attention some unimportant guy gets on the forums based on the fact that he manages to be slightly annoying in one out of hundreds of systems.

I'm also somewhat amused by the "OMG IT'S A SANDBOX GAME" crew, and the indignation and rage they show when someone disagrees with THEIR ways of playing in the sandbox. Hai Solstice.

wow thats deep. bet you care to explain what you are talking about, right? because you make no sense to me. and i am sure that you being a lemming does not have anything to do with your post...
Nanatoa
#167 - 2012-10-22 11:51:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Nanatoa
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Only emergent hi sec player I have seen this year is Solstice Project. He brings a new dimension to hi sec in his Thrashers.

James 315 has emerged only in the sense that he managed to convince otherwise conservative investors into giving him 13B.
Technically it's more of a "cinema ticket" than an investment.
A fairly expensive ticket, considering the minimal efforts required to get a Stabber.

Prolonged bump + racket is something I have witnessed (and fought against by supporting an anti-gank corp) since 1+ years ago, it's really nothing new under the sun.

Even his presence imo is somewhat too limited. Some of my alts currently live in one of his "new order" systems, I don't see a real "new order", some annoyance at best.

New order was when Bat Country would make tabula rasa for 23/7. THAT was emergent game play, in the sense nobody else would create such effective and prolonged activities.

Overall, once let the loud self emperor declaring words, I find that the capsuleers cemetery or even the EvE RL charity fund are more emergent than this.


Wow, look who's butt-hurt about his own initiative not being mentioned as emergent gameplay.
And do you even see your own double standard? James 315 is not emergent because it is "nothing new", but shooting pods for bragging rights is emergent, though there's nothing new about that either? James 315 has a "limited presence" with just a few systems but some guy always hanging out in the same system is somehow dominating the universe? I'd ask what you were thinking when you wrote that, but cleary you weren't thinking at all.

(Btw, James 315 raised 20B so far; I'm not sure where you got the 13B figure)

"Stay the course, we have done this many times before." - (CCP) Hilmar, June 2011
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#168 - 2012-10-22 13:17:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Nanatoa wrote:

Wow, look who's butt-hurt about his own initiative not being mentioned as emergent gameplay.
And do you even see your own double standard? James 315 is not emergent because it is "nothing new", but shooting pods for bragging rights is emergent, though there's nothing new about that either? James 315 has a "limited presence" with just a few systems but some guy always hanging out in the same system is somehow dominating the universe? I'd ask what you were thinking when you wrote that, but cleary you weren't thinking at all.

(Btw, James 315 raised 20B so far; I'm not sure where you got the 13B figure)


I don't need to be butt-hurt over some forum based self personality cult. My initiative:

1) It's from 2010 so it'd be hardly a 2012 emergent initiative.
2) Has been showcased at Fanfest 2011 (with no request of mine), which imho is something different than being relegated on a forum. Even then, the intent is to help save RL human lives not to highlight my person so I can't care the less that I am not put on the king throne.
3) I pasted the number on his thread title I have seen this morning. If he does not keep it updated it's not my fault. Not gonna read it every day. In my country we had one of those dictators he refers himself to so much, I don't find it funny.

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Austneal
Nero Fazione
#169 - 2012-10-22 13:30:00 UTC
Never heard of him
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#170 - 2012-10-22 14:09:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Simetraz
SO let me see if I get this right.

Someone decides to bump miners.
Which means they aren't even destroying them just bumping them and then trying to get them to pay ISK to be left alone.

And people are paying to not be bumped and people are paying into the company that is doing the bumping.

You ever met a person that always wants to hug everyone.
This is what the whole thing reminds me of.

People running around hugging miners screaming "I love you man" and the miners saying "Get off me, here have some ISk and go away".

OR is this more of a cat thing with the head Butting for love.
Aaaaahhh aren't they soooo cute they want love.

You have been Booped and I will Boop you till you pay me.

WOW, Speechless. Lol

EVERYBODY KNOWS
Nanatoa
#171 - 2012-10-22 14:32:45 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
3) I pasted the number on his thread title I have seen this morning. If he does not keep it updated it's not my fault.

Title says 20B; last edit was at 01:05 last night.

I'm glad you saw that your own double standard made so little sense it wasn't worth spending a single word defending it.

"Stay the course, we have done this many times before." - (CCP) Hilmar, June 2011
Dread Pirate Pete
Doomheim
#172 - 2012-10-22 15:03:43 UTC
The real gripe with James (hilarious as he may be) is not that he bumps miners, but that miners can do nothing about it. You cant bump him back, thats pointless. You can't shoot him, you can't even wardec him. You cant fit anti-bumping mods. Ignoring him and hoping you have more patience is hardly a winning plan.

In every other instance of harassment there is something you can do about it, kill rights for ganks, flags for stealing your loot, etc. I don't know exactly what would be a good mechanic that wouldn't be used by gankers to lure noobs to flag themselves, but I'm sure some form of system can be dreamt up.

What I have yet to see is an explanation from the bumper camp as to why they should be invulnerable to retaliation from the miners, or the miners friends. What they do may not be against the EULA, but that is no reason for why they should be safe in EvE. Surely James has enough isk for a few more stabbers saved up somewhere?

So tell me bumpers, exact mechanics aside, do you think there should be flagging for what you do? And if no, does that not make you the very worst form of self hating carebears?
James 315
Experimental Fun Times Corp RELOADED
CODE.
#173 - 2012-10-22 15:07:13 UTC
Dread Pirate Pete wrote:
The real gripe with James (hilarious as he may be) is not that he bumps miners, but that miners can do nothing about it. You cant bump him back, thats pointless. You can't shoot him, you can't even wardec him. You cant fit anti-bumping mods. Ignoring him and hoping you have more patience is hardly a winning plan.

In every other instance of harassment there is something you can do about it, kill rights for ganks, flags for stealing your loot, etc. I don't know exactly what would be a good mechanic that wouldn't be used by gankers to lure noobs to flag themselves, but I'm sure some form of system can be dreamt up.

What I have yet to see is an explanation from the bumper camp as to why they should be invulnerable to retaliation from the miners, or the miners friends. What they do may not be against the EULA, but that is no reason for why they should be safe in EvE. Surely James has enough isk for a few more stabbers saved up somewhere?

So tell me bumpers, exact mechanics aside, do you think there should be flagging for what you do? And if no, does that not make you the very worst form of self hating carebears?

I have already fully addressed that question.

MinerBumping.com
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#174 - 2012-10-22 15:11:41 UTC
Dread Pirate Pete wrote:
The real gripe with James (hilarious as he may be) is not that he bumps miners, but that miners can do nothing about it. You cant bump him back, thats pointless. You can't shoot him, you can't even wardec him. You cant fit anti-bumping mods. Ignoring him and hoping you have more patience is hardly a winning plan.


You could pay him, or dodge his bumps. Or... you know, be at your keyboard, respond, and he won't bump you. Or are you saying that you should be able to PvP while not at your keyboard?

Dread Pirate Pete wrote:
So tell me bumpers, exact mechanics aside, do you think there should be flagging for what you do?

Nope. Bumping happens way too much on accident elsewhere in Eve for it to be reasonable for it to cause flags. This is the same reason damage from bumping doesn't work: the Jita undock or ratting in asteroid belts would be death.

Yes, bumping is silly, and it would be great if it could be "fixed", but I don't see how.
Dread Pirate Pete wrote:
And if no, does that not make you the very worst form of self hating carebears?


carebearn. derogatory term used to describe players who prefer to refrain from PvP combat. Activities that involve playing against the game environment are collectively referred to as "carebearing." Some examples of behavior:

  • Is a non-PvP oriented pilot - generally a miner or mission-runner.
  • Refuses to engage in PvP at all costs.
  • Disagrees with PvP existing in empire space.
  • Often is a solo pilot still in an original NPC corp.
  • Responds to violent/illegal interaction with other players with a negative and unsporting attitude.
  • Tries to amass as much wealth as possible while expecting as little conflict as possible.

(source)

I don't see how any of these apply to miner bumpers.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Vanyr Andrard
VacuumTube
#175 - 2012-10-22 15:20:40 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
[

You could pay him, or dodge his bumps. Or... you know, be at your keyboard, respond, and he won't bump you. Or are you saying that you should be able to PvP while not at your keyboard?


This is untrue, in my observation he preferentially bumps those that are at their keyboard and respond, in an attempt to get them to pay him money or pay him with tears.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#176 - 2012-10-22 15:23:38 UTC
Vanyr Andrard wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
[

You could pay him, or dodge his bumps. Or... you know, be at your keyboard, respond, and he won't bump you. Or are you saying that you should be able to PvP while not at your keyboard?


This is untrue, in my observation he preferentially bumps those that are at their keyboard and respond, in an attempt to get them to pay him money or pay him with tears.

I refer you to The Code, for your perusal. Being at your keyboard and not botting is in accordance to The Code, and lets you remain in good standing with the Order.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#177 - 2012-10-22 15:30:34 UTC
Nanatoa wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
3) I pasted the number on his thread title I have seen this morning. If he does not keep it updated it's not my fault.

Title says 20B; last edit was at 01:05 last night.



Your "last night" is not necessarily my "last night".


Nanatoa wrote:

I'm glad you saw that your own double standard made so little sense it wasn't worth spending a single word defending it.


There's no double standard at all.

It's not something new at all: neither the bumping (which I got plenty in the past years beginning from 0.0 when trying to dock) nor the miners racketing (usually it's pay or explode, not pay or get bumped though).

An EvE cemetery, a charity, web-scrambling, goons grid shaping, creating a FW Forex (later deemed as quasi-exploit), even boomerang (non) suicide ganking... those are things that were totally new and really not in the designers minds at all.
Some of these things ended up being banished because "too emergent", but let's be real, those are the things that push the game to new limits, not bumping some AFK dude.

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Vanyr Andrard
VacuumTube
#178 - 2012-10-22 15:42:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Vanyr Andrard
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Vanyr Andrard wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
[

You could pay him, or dodge his bumps. Or... you know, be at your keyboard, respond, and he won't bump you. Or are you saying that you should be able to PvP while not at your keyboard?


This is untrue, in my observation he preferentially bumps those that are at their keyboard and respond, in an attempt to get them to pay him money or pay him with tears.

I refer you to The Code, for your perusal. Being at your keyboard and not botting is in accordance to The Code, and lets you remain in good standing with the Order.



I refer you to This Post by James315 , which proves you wrong yet again.
Nanatoa
#179 - 2012-10-22 15:47:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Nanatoa
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Your "last night" is not necessarily my "last night".

Not necessarily perhaps, but it is, isn't it? Your posting habits suggest you sleep from about midnight to 06:00 game time.


Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Nanatoa wrote:

I'm glad you saw that your own double standard made so little sense it wasn't worth spending a single word defending it.


There's no double standard at all.

You called what Solstice Project does 'emergent', but you dismissed what James 315 does as 'nothing new' and 'limited'. There is your double standard. If "bumping some AFK dude" is not emergent then neither is podding some autopiloting dude.
None of your examples have anything to do with this.




Petrus Blackshell wrote:
I refer you to The Code, for your perusal. Being at your keyboard and not botting is in accordance to The Code, and lets you remain in good standing with the Order.

You still have to pay for an indulgence though. Not being AFK prevents you from losing your indulgence after you paid for it.

"Stay the course, we have done this many times before." - (CCP) Hilmar, June 2011
Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#180 - 2012-10-22 15:50:31 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Falcon
Please don't make personal attacks - CCP Falcon