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What is the real problem people have with High Sec?
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Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari
End of Life
#1 - 2012-10-18 03:55:31 UTC
A lot of GD at the moment seems to be unhappy about people living in High Sec almost primarily, so I want to legitimately ask what the biggest issues those players have with allowing other players to live in a mostly risk-free environment.

Can people make more ISK/hour than you think they should (L4s etc)?

Do people think that semi-afk mining is an issue as it potentially drives mineral prices down?

Do people want more targets to shoot in low/null/WH?

Should no-one in eve be allowed to play in a relatively risk free (from a ship getting blown up standpoint) environment?

Do people feel that if something can be done in High-Sec there is no point even bothering to do that activity in Low/Null/WH? (and also is this inherently a bad thing?)


I am legitimately interested in both what the perceived problems are with High-Sec and further what changes such a discussion could lead to in the future.
Alexa Coates
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-10-18 03:58:18 UTC
the real problem is all the assholes in low/null chased everyone out so now they're whining and crying to have everyone forced into low/null so they can shoot them.

That's a Templar, an Amarr fighter used by carriers.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-10-18 04:03:40 UTC
yes, to all

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#4 - 2012-10-18 04:08:15 UTC
Davis TetrisKing wrote:
Can people make more ISK/hour than you think they should (L4s etc)?

If you follow a risk/reward paradigm, then yes, high-sec (grind) income is way too high for the risks that the high-sec individual has.

Davis TetrisKing wrote:
Do people think that semi-afk mining is an issue as it potentially drives mineral prices down?

Bot mining especially.

Davis TetrisKing wrote:
Do people want more targets to shoot in low/null/WH?

I don't think that matters so much.

Davis TetrisKing wrote:
Should no-one in eve be allowed to play in a relatively risk free (from a ship getting blown up standpoint) environment?

EVE isn't about being safe. At least, that isn't how I see it advertised.

Davis TetrisKing wrote:
Do people feel that if something can be done in High-Sec there is no point even bothering to do that activity in Low/Null/WH? (and also is this inherently a bad thing?)

A lot of null-sec dudes have pointed out that their people make money in high-sec and only really fight out in null, and that there isn't much to fight over in null because there isn't good money-making out there. I don't know about you, but that sounds like a big problem. Bigger risks, and having to defend your space, should mean bigger rewards.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari
End of Life
#5 - 2012-10-18 04:17:17 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:

A lot of null-sec dudes have pointed out that their people make money in high-sec and only really fight out in null, and that there isn't much to fight over in null because there isn't good money-making out there. I don't know about you, but that sounds like a big problem. Bigger risks, and having to defend your space, should mean bigger rewards.


Firstly thanks for the overall great reply.

I actually think this is a really great point.

While I personally feel that there should be some amount of ISK people can earn in High Sec with practically no risk (but much lower than current L4s), if people are coming to high-sec from their low/null homes to make ISK then I think we have a problem.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#6 - 2012-10-18 04:22:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Hobb
Davis TetrisKing wrote:
While I personally feel that there should be some amount of ISK people can earn in High Sec with practically no risk (but much lower than current L4s), if people are coming to high-sec from their low/null homes to make ISK then I think we have a problem.

Manufacturing is also much easier in high-sec, mainly because of factory slots available. Sov null-sec systems can only have one outpost, unlike high-sec (and even low-sec) systems which may have many.

Timers for towers and such mean that defending sov null is quite easy (or so I read, I'm no expert). E: Rather, being in place to defend your space is quite easy.

Basically what it boils down to is that sov null needs some serious overhauls in order to make it work again, and high-sec could use a nerf or two to make low-sec more enticing (after FW is fixed, of course).

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari
End of Life
#7 - 2012-10-18 04:37:00 UTC
This is a fair point. I've often also wondered if a possible solution (or step towards a solution) would be to significantly lower the number of high-sec systems. This would lead to a lot more crowding for manufacturing/research slots in high sec and drive competitors out into low sec.

My other concern is the huge polar difference between high sec and low sec. Currently I feel completely safe in any 0.5 or above system, but the moment I venture into low sec suddenly I am an instant target. There is no middle ground. No place that is a little bit riskier, but where people can dip their toes in (obviously still with fairly low rewards to match to low risk) without getting instantly outgunned by all the old pros.

Obviously this is just a spur of the moment idea and I havn't thought about all the further implications, but something like having systems where pvp is allowed but warp scrablers don't work. Would make mission running/ratting riskier, but with a higher chance of survival.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#8 - 2012-10-18 04:39:42 UTC
Davis TetrisKing wrote:
This is a fair point. I've often also wondered if a possible solution (or step towards a solution) would be to significantly lower the number of high-sec systems. This would lead to a lot more crowding for manufacturing/research slots in high sec and drive competitors out into low sec.

My other concern is the huge polar difference between high sec and low sec. Currently I feel completely safe in any 0.5 or above system, but the moment I venture into low sec suddenly I am an instant target. There is no middle ground. No place that is a little bit riskier, but where people can dip their toes in (obviously still with fairly low rewards to match to low risk) without getting instantly outgunned by all the old pros.

Already been suggested: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=26049
Good reading.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari
End of Life
#9 - 2012-10-18 04:41:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Davis TetrisKing
Thanks for the link. Please excuse my lack of research.

Back in 10, reading.

EDIT: great read, thanks again for the link.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#10 - 2012-10-18 04:42:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Piugattuk
In the time I've been here it seems to me that people down under want things that scream, squirms, and make funny noises when you kill them, the satisfaction of killing gives them a sence of control, power, and it assures them that they can dominate, and when people cry by convo it's that charge that surge they get that satisfies their ego, which for me I don't get any satisfaction from buggering others, my satisfaction comes from being the best indy possible, going out on a scavenger hunt to put a puzzle together then sell the whole to others and it gives me satisfaction to meet those demands which for me means get too it collecting, but this is a concept that's alien to them, theres no reward doing indy stuff.Blink Oh just to add it was very easy for me to build a battleship down in dull sec because of the abundance of materials and I made isk very quickly much faster then in hi sec so this risk reward thing is a bogus Bologna sandwich however the biggest problem I had was getting bpc/bpo's and skill books.
Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari
End of Life
#11 - 2012-10-18 05:03:00 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
In the time I've been here it seems to me that people down under want things that scream, squirms, and make funny noises when you kill them, the satisfaction of killing gives them a sence of control, power, and it assures them that they can dominate, and when people cry by convo it's that charge that surge they get that satisfies their ego, which for me I don't get any satisfaction from buggering others, my satisfaction comes from being the best indy possible, going out on a scavenger hunt to put a puzzle together then sell the whole to others and it gives me satisfaction to meet those demands which for me means get too it collecting, but this is a concept that's alien to them, theres no reward doing indy stuff.Blink


Interesting look into your motivation. Do you think more resources should be moved out to be exclusively in low or null?
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#12 - 2012-10-18 05:04:03 UTC
There's nothing wrong with highsec.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-10-18 05:07:35 UTC
High sec is necessary but I would love to see it choked off. One small region for each empire would be perfect.
Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari
End of Life
#14 - 2012-10-18 05:08:05 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
There's nothing wrong with highsec.


I completely respect your opinion. I spend most of my time in High-Sec at the moment (I have more fun ratting in Low-Sec because of the constant threat/adrenaline rush etc than missions in High-Sec but just can't justify how much lower isk/hour I make is compared the L4s).

I am mainly looking at what people think the problems are since there are definitely quite a few who do think that something is wrong.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#15 - 2012-10-18 05:08:32 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
EVE isn't about being safe. At least, that isn't how I see it advertised.

I had a think about this one and you know, all the advertising I can ever recall seeing is of huge space fleets duking it out in 0.0.

Can't recall any vids showing ganking as a reason to join Eve.

I'm sorta inclined to follow a line of thought that CCP's vision of a cold, dark universe was more about what's "out there" rather than all of Eve itself.

Highsec was perhaps meant to be no more than a jump-off utility and training point, not a residential area.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari
End of Life
#16 - 2012-10-18 05:10:38 UTC
Praxis Ginimic wrote:
High sec is necessary but I would love to see it choked off. One small region for each empire would be perfect.


Interesting idea. Would need to have a huge need to travel between regions (forgive me if there already is one but for casual people like me I generally play within the one area fine) otherwise it might just form 4 little 'islands'.
No More Heroes
Boomer Humor
Snuffed Out
#17 - 2012-10-18 05:11:02 UTC
If you read this article here http://themittani.com/features/vision-thing

It gives a really good idea of the problems with 0.0 ~Then, we see the recent changes over the last year to high sec (alchemy, mining barges, the upcoming criminal thing, hell even FW since most everyone made an alt to get in on that too.)

It's like every other area of the game gets sheltered, and coddled and buffed and polished whereas 0.0 gets kicked in the balls. The hardest place to live gets harder. That's my problem with high sec.

.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#18 - 2012-10-18 05:13:14 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
I had a think about this one and you know, all the advertising I can ever recall seeing is of huge space fleets duking it out in 0.0.

Yeah, wouldn't it be great if them null-bears had some **** to fight over? Maybe we should quit coddling high-sec for an expansion and fix ******* null-sec.

Touval Lysander wrote:
Highsec was perhaps meant to be no more than a jump-off utility and training point, not a residential area.

Too bad no one treats it as such.

Also, if it were intended as such, don't you think it'd be a bit smaller? Also, if it were intended as such, why is the income as good as null-sec income at a fraction of the risk? Also, why is manufacturing better in high-sec?

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Ken Sunji
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-10-18 05:14:38 UTC
Yay a constructive thread on this topic for a change! Finally!

What it comes down to for me is that I am very much a casual eve player, I enjoy the process of gathering mats, making stuff and selling it, then working out how to make more isk from that profit/where I will get my next deal from. It makes enough to pay for PLEX and for some side projects in investing and some crappy PVP efforts. But thats what keeps me coming back and while I would like to try 0.0, I just havent bothered yet (and have been playing for a year)
Karrl Tian
Doomheim
#20 - 2012-10-18 05:22:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Karrl Tian
Touval Lysander wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
EVE isn't about being safe. At least, that isn't how I see it advertised.

I had a think about this one and you know, all the advertising I can ever recall seeing is of huge space fleets duking it out in 0.0.

Can't recall any vids showing ganking as a reason to join Eve.



Yeah, they can't very well make a l337 epic trailer about two guys talking smack while playing station games with neutral logis at Jita.And imagine if the "I was there" guy was trying to narrate how his hands were shaking as he locked an AFK barge/autopiloting hauler and hoped he had enough DPS to kill it before CONCORD auto-popped his catalyst.

Although they did make corp infiltration look good at one point. Do not ever gank Merlin pilots! They're a vengeful people.
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