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Making the Procuror, Skiff, Covetor and Hulk Relevant

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Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2012-10-14 14:18:59 UTC
utility highs to hulk/covie and proc/skiff = win

But in order to do that, they need to make strip miners require a turret slot, like the smaller mining lasers do.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-10-14 15:35:15 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
the hitpoint buffs have essentially nerfed suicide ganking into the ground there's even less in the way of decisions for miners to make.

Hulk's ehp is unchanged, and the mac still sits easily in the "gankable" territory if the pilot doesn't fit it right.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#43 - 2012-10-14 19:21:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Astroniomix wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
the hitpoint buffs have essentially nerfed suicide ganking into the ground there's even less in the way of decisions for miners to make.

Hulk's ehp is unchanged, and the mac still sits easily in the "gankable" territory if the pilot doesn't fit it right.

Let's see some KM's?

The "threat" of "risk" is nothing more than a veiled attempt to say, "Um, yeah, there's not any legitimate risk really. But at some point there just might be!"

But if you can demonstrate their "gankability" with some mails proving that this threat of risk is real, I'll believe that.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-10-14 20:31:08 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
the hitpoint buffs have essentially nerfed suicide ganking into the ground there's even less in the way of decisions for miners to make.

Hulk's ehp is unchanged, and the mac still sits easily in the "gankable" territory if the pilot doesn't fit it right.

Let's see some KM's?

The "threat" of "risk" is nothing more than a veiled attempt to say, "Um, yeah, there's not any legitimate risk really. But at some point there just might be!"

But if you can demonstrate their "gankability" with some mails proving that this threat of risk is real, I'll believe that.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17672903
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17667304

So now that we have established that they are not, in fact indestructable or even particularly hard to gank (depending on how smart the pilot is, which is how it should be. You should get punnished for being stupid). I'll point out that I never said ANYTHING about risk. All I said is that it is possible to gank them.

I'm sick of people that heard "barge ehp buff" and instantly assumed it meant they would be unkillable or something equaly stupid.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#45 - 2012-10-14 20:54:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Astroniomix wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
the hitpoint buffs have essentially nerfed suicide ganking into the ground there's even less in the way of decisions for miners to make.

Hulk's ehp is unchanged, and the mac still sits easily in the "gankable" territory if the pilot doesn't fit it right.

Let's see some KM's?

The "threat" of "risk" is nothing more than a veiled attempt to say, "Um, yeah, there's not any legitimate risk really. But at some point there just might be!"

But if you can demonstrate their "gankability" with some mails proving that this threat of risk is real, I'll believe that.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17672903
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17667304

So now that we have established that they are not, in fact indestructable or even particularly hard to gank (depending on how smart the pilot is, which is how it should be. You should get punnished for being stupid). I'll point out that I never said ANYTHING about risk. All I said is that it is possible to gank them.

I'm sick of people that heard "barge ehp buff" and instantly assumed it meant they would be unkillable or something equaly stupid.

The Mackinaw is good evidence. I won't deny that. It looks like one in a million, but it's evidence.

We always knew that untanked Covetors could be ganked FWIW. I noticed these kills were in 0.5 space.

I wonder what the risk would be in, say, a 0.6 or 0.7 for a Mackinaw with a "tank" rig and a single "tank" module?

Anyway, +1 to you for finding the km and proving it can be done in 0.5 with a reasonable number of ships and players.

[edit] I noticed that the gankers probably didn't even break even from the drops. [/edit]

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-10-14 21:00:23 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
the hitpoint buffs have essentially nerfed suicide ganking into the ground there's even less in the way of decisions for miners to make.

Hulk's ehp is unchanged, and the mac still sits easily in the "gankable" territory if the pilot doesn't fit it right.

Let's see some KM's?

The "threat" of "risk" is nothing more than a veiled attempt to say, "Um, yeah, there's not any legitimate risk really. But at some point there just might be!"

But if you can demonstrate their "gankability" with some mails proving that this threat of risk is real, I'll believe that.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17672903
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17667304

So now that we have established that they are not, in fact indestructable or even particularly hard to gank (depending on how smart the pilot is, which is how it should be. You should get punnished for being stupid). I'll point out that I never said ANYTHING about risk. All I said is that it is possible to gank them.

I'm sick of people that heard "barge ehp buff" and instantly assumed it meant they would be unkillable or something equaly stupid.

The Mackinaw is good evidence. I won't deny that. It looks like one in a million, but it's evidence.

We always knew that untanked Covetors could be ganked FWIW. I noticed these kills were in 0.5 space.

I wonder what the risk would be in, say, a 0.6 or 0.7 for a Mackinaw with a "tank" rig and a single "tank" module?

Anyway, +1 to you for finding the km and proving it can be done in 0.5 with a reasonable number of ships and players.

Some basic eft maths says that it should be doable in .6 and .7 space. It's gets a bit more tricky but there are plenty of people who refuse to tank their barges if you know where to look. (I've even seen a few still sporting cargo rigs) Though if you actualy TANK them, it becomes much harder to gank. The hulk is somewhat more protected by the fact that they have fallen out of favor for solo afk miners so they aren't found sitting around by themselves nearly as often.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#47 - 2012-10-14 23:36:57 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:

Some basic eft maths says that it should be doable in .6 and .7 space. It's gets a bit more tricky but there are plenty of people who refuse to tank their barges if you know where to look. (I've even seen a few still sporting cargo rigs) Though if you actualy TANK them, it becomes much harder to gank. The hulk is somewhat more protected by the fact that they have fallen out of favor for solo afk miners so they aren't found sitting around by themselves nearly as often.


some dumb miners just wont learn P

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#48 - 2012-10-14 23:54:29 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:


[edit] I noticed that the gankers probably didn't even break even from the drops. [/edit]


dessies only cost about 1mil for the hull and then drop half of their own equipment as well. dunno about the retty, but the drop from the hulk would have covered the cost of the gank alone, then there would (hopefully) be T2 salvage.

as long as ppl fit that poorly, ganking will make money

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#49 - 2012-10-14 23:59:13 UTC
Quoting myself.

Paikis wrote:
Each Mackinaw (assuming max yield fit and a 5% implant) mines 1405m3 per minute. A Hulk with the same fit and implant mines 1624m3 per minute. A Hulk with the same fit, 5% implant and a perfect Orca booster mines 2761m3 per minute.

1 Mack: 1405m3
2 Macks: 2810m3
3 Macks: 4215m3
4 Macks: 5620m3
5 Macks: 7025m3

1 Hulk: 1624m3
2 Hulks: 3248m3
3 Hulks: 4872m3
4 Hulks: 6496m3
5 Hulks: 8120m3

1 Hulk: 1624m3
1 Hulk w/ Orca: 2761m3
2 Hulks w/ Orca: 5522m3
3 Hulks w/ Orca: 8283m3
4 Hulks w/ Orca: 11044m3
5 Hulks w/ Orca: 13805m3

If you only have 1 character, you may be better off using a Mackinaw due to hauling issues. If you have 2 characters, I would use Hulk+Orca because the ore loss is minimal and will most likely be made up by not having to stop your hulk to haul. Any amount of characters above 2 will see the Hulks+Orca combination miles in front. Mining with Mackinaws+Orca will never be optimal, unless you're trying to multibox large amounts of accounts... and that is more of an ease-of-use issue... you will be mining less.

Another advantage of the Hulk is that its 3 mining lasers allow it to mine 3 rocks at once, reducing lost mining time when you pop an asteroid that only had 2 units of ore in it.


The current situation is pretty much balanced. Are you in a fleet with support? Use a Hulk. Are you soloing in highsec or null sec behind a blue screen? Fly a Mackinaw. Are you soloing in dangerous space? Use a Skiff.

I would not object to the Hulk getting a range bonus, but I WOULD be surprised if it happened.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#50 - 2012-10-15 00:49:59 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:

if that was referring to when i said procurers can gtfo, its because we have them fit a stab.


You can fit a stab to a Hulk or Mack also.
Infact under that argument due to the imbalance in slots (which I note you didn't comment on) Macks are the hardest to catch since they can fit three Stabs.

I'll repost since people seem to have missed it. (Or don't care)

Quote:
Effective Available slots.
Hulk: 9
Mack: 10
Skiff: 10

Given the three barges are meant to be equivilent tiers now. This seems a problem that the Hulk has one less slot effectively.
This can be rectified either by adding a slot to the Hulk (Low slot ideally to pack more yield onto the hulk to make it a clear king there) or by removing a slot from the Mack (Low to drop it's yield) & Skiff (Mid, since it already only has 2 lows, and dropping it to 1 low removes fitting options).
The latter option brings the Skiff & Mack to identical yield potential (in theory ignoring overkill), which helps the skiff against the mack, and since it increases the gap between the mack & hulk yield, also helps the hulk out at the same time.
The first option simply improves the hulk but leaves the skiff where it is.
So my personal preference would be for option 2, but either brings them back in line.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#51 - 2012-10-15 01:26:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:

if that was referring to when i said procurers can gtfo, its because we have them fit a stab.


You can fit a stab to a Hulk or Mack also.
Infact under that argument due to the imbalance in slots (which I note you didn't comment on) Macks are the hardest to catch since they can fit three Stabs.

I'll repost since people seem to have missed it. (Or don't care)

Quote:
Effective Available slots.
Hulk: 9
Mack: 10
Skiff: 10

Given the three barges are meant to be equivilent tiers now. This seems a problem that the Hulk has one less slot effectively.
This can be rectified either by adding a slot to the Hulk (Low slot ideally to pack more yield onto the hulk to make it a clear king there) or by removing a slot from the Mack (Low to drop it's yield) & Skiff (Mid, since it already only has 2 lows, and dropping it to 1 low removes fitting options).
The latter option brings the Skiff & Mack to identical yield potential (in theory ignoring overkill), which helps the skiff against the mack, and since it increases the gap between the mack & hulk yield, also helps the hulk out at the same time.
The first option simply improves the hulk but leaves the skiff where it is.
So my personal preference would be for option 2, but either brings them back in line.


it has little to no relevance without any context or direction. having less slots is not really a direct way to measure power or freighters would be the most worthless ships in the game.

with all slots and 'theoretical slots' considered, the three roles are still clearly defined and the hulk is at no disadvantage because of it. it just does not suit the play style of most miners.

i was also referring to our specific bait procurers with mag stabs, cause they dont work well against kiters, so the single stab is all they need to get away from long points. i realise a mack could fit more mag stabs, but it could never tank like we'd want it to whilst carrying a scram and web.

edit- its also difficult to distinguish ur ideas from somone who wants things to be truly balanced or someone who just wants his hulk to do everything at once. if u want the hulk to mine so much more than the mack or skiff, then nerf their yields. the hulk needs no buff, at all, in anything.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#52 - 2012-10-15 02:17:05 UTC
I don't fly a hulk at all.
I'm sitting in barges and typically solo mining.

What I am doing is looking at the claims (which are pretty well borne out in game) that Macks/Retrievers have taken over and very few Hulks/Covetors & even less Skiffs/Procuters are to be seen.
And looking at why this could be, and small tweaks that will adjust this.

The extra low that a Mack has brings it closer to a hulk in terms of yield, still doesn't match it I agree, but it does get it closer in if people want because it can fit an extra mining upgrade in it's lows.
The Hulk having less than 25% the ore bay of the Mack is also another reason.

I get that the Hulk is meant as a fleet miner, but..... it shouldn't be so gimped. A Mack in a Fleet mining situation is what, maybe 10% less efficient, but a hulk in a solo mining situation is 80% less effective ore hold size?

It's the relative differences that all add up and make the Mack a fairly obvious choice for most people until they can have all three in their hanger and pick the perfect one for todays op.

What I'm advocating is closing that gap slightly, not making the hulk have a half hour ore bay, but 3-4 cycles of ore bay rather than just 2. Closer to what the skiff can do basically. And to knock back that extra low the Mack has.
That brings all of them into more balanced numbers relative to each other and encourages a wider spread of use.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#53 - 2012-10-15 02:59:21 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:


[edit] I noticed that the gankers probably didn't even break even from the drops. [/edit]


dessies only cost about 1mil for the hull and then drop half of their own equipment as well. dunno about the retty, but the drop from the hulk would have covered the cost of the gank alone, then there would (hopefully) be T2 salvage.

as long as ppl fit that poorly, ganking will make money


You are also forgetting the t2 salvage they get from the wreck.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#54 - 2012-10-15 03:10:52 UTC
fair enough.
taking a low from the mack, and even removing its 1% per level yield bonus would be fine for me.

but i still feel like reinforcing that the reason the hulk is used so little is because most miners are lonely and lazy ppl. i personally would loathe an extension of the hulks ore bay. it might be quite elitist of me, but i think that the yield u get from a hulk should only come with greater organisation and hard work. Increasing its ore bay would make it into yet another afk miner that u need only check up on every 10 minutes rather than every 3.

and the skiff is rare because any tank greater than that which the mack and hulk can already reach is superfluous in the vast majority of situations. even in null, the second u see the bad guys in local u warp to a POS and ur safe.

there isn't an equal amount of skiffs, macks and hulks because the roles they fulfill are not equally viable. it really does not have anything to do with an inbalance of the ships themselves.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#55 - 2012-10-15 03:19:36 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
fair enough.
taking a low from the mack, and even removing its 1% per level yield bonus would be fine for me.

but i still feel like reinforcing that the reason the hulk is used so little is because most miners are lonely and lazy ppl. i personally would loathe an extension of the hulks ore bay. it might be quite elitist of me, but i think that the yield u get from a hulk should only come with greater organisation and hard work. Increasing its ore bay would make it into yet another afk miner that u need only check up on every 10 minutes rather than every 3.

and the skiff is rare because any tank greater than that which the mack and hulk can already reach is superfluous in the vast majority of situations. even in null, the second u see the bad guys in local u warp to a POS and ur safe.

there isn't an equal amount of skiffs, macks and hulks because the roles they fulfill are not equally viable. it really does not have anything to do with an inbalance of the ships themselves.

Your last point is why I think that CCP need to take a good, hard look at ninja mining.

It needs to be vastly more appealing.

Also, the Mack gets a verysubstantial portion of the Hulk's yield while enjoying moderate survivability and a cavernous ore bay. I don't think throwing the Hulk a bone would be that big a problem.

However, if miners preferred to see a lower yield on the Mack, that's an equally valid option from a balance standpoint.

There might never be as many of each exhumer "on the field" as the others, but it would be nice if there were at least some notion of "risk vs. reward" as opposed to "micromanagement vs. reward". All with assumption of nominal safety in 0.7 and higher.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#56 - 2012-10-15 03:34:32 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:

Your last point is why I think that CCP need to take a good, hard look at ninja mining.

It needs to be vastly more appealing.

Also, the Mack gets a verysubstantial portion of the Hulk's yield while enjoying moderate survivability and a cavernous ore bay. I don't think throwing the Hulk a bone would be that big a problem.

However, if miners preferred to see a lower yield on the Mack, that's an equally valid option from a balance standpoint.

There might never be as many of each exhumer "on the field" as the others, but it would be nice if there were at least some notion of "risk vs. reward" as opposed to "micromanagement vs. reward". All with assumption of nominal safety in 0.7 and higher.


the new mining frig looks like it will be alot of fun for ninja mining (and completely free trolol)

as for risk vs reward, i dnt really know what to say. any barge is pointless to gank when protected properly, and any barge is profitable when not. the only way to add risk to it would be to cripple the EHP of whatever ship u were trying to make more risky. and that would pretty much undo what CCP just did, and lets remember, they did it because every miner was crying about how gankable their barge was.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#57 - 2012-10-15 04:09:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

Your last point is why I think that CCP need to take a good, hard look at ninja mining.

It needs to be vastly more appealing.

Also, the Mack gets a verysubstantial portion of the Hulk's yield while enjoying moderate survivability and a cavernous ore bay. I don't think throwing the Hulk a bone would be that big a problem.

However, if miners preferred to see a lower yield on the Mack, that's an equally valid option from a balance standpoint.

There might never be as many of each exhumer "on the field" as the others, but it would be nice if there were at least some notion of "risk vs. reward" as opposed to "micromanagement vs. reward". All with assumption of nominal safety in 0.7 and higher.


the new mining frig looks like it will be alot of fun for ninja mining (and completely free trolol)

as for risk vs reward, i dnt really know what to say. any barge is pointless to gank when protected properly, and any barge is profitable when not. the only way to add risk to it would be to cripple the EHP of whatever ship u were trying to make more risky. and that would pretty much undo what CCP just did, and lets remember, they did it because every miner was crying about how gankable their barge was.

I'm gonna agree with just about everything you said I think, but remind you that there were always playstyles that ensured that miners could avoid being ganked. It wasn't very hard and virtually guaranteed survival. Aligning to a warp-out and paying attention really would have prevented miners from being ganked before the exhumer buff. It doesn't even require a tank.

The only other point of contention I have is that if you nerfed the Mackinaw's EHP by some reasonable amount (I'm not talking about a giant nerf here), it still leaves it with the built-in jet can in the form of an ore bay. That's hardly nerfing it back to pre-buff levels. Honestly, I think maybe 5-7.5% HP would be enough to smooth it out.

I can't help but point at the Hulk's huge disadvantages in both HP and ore bay, either.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#58 - 2012-10-15 04:09:52 UTC
Except they didn't change Hulks EHP.
Or not by any significant amount anyway.

Just more of them are being tank fitted now (or are just flying Macks)
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#59 - 2012-10-15 04:12:33 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Except they didn't change Hulks EHP.
Or not by any significant amount anyway.

Just more of them are being tank fitted now (or are just flying Macks)

You're right. They barely changed the Hulk.

The Mackinaw, however, enjoys robust EHP, yield, and convenience.

The Skiff enjoys robust EHP and convenience.

The Hulk enjoys only yield.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#60 - 2012-10-15 04:16:43 UTC
making macks more vulnerable to ganking may serve as some punishment for afk mining and encourage active miners. i wouldnt mind that at all.

but if we are talking about making the mack less tanky than the hulk, i'm much less sure of that, as it naturally makes sense to make the highest yield barge the least tanked. its in-the-box thinking i know, but for good reason

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs