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Building a better battleship.
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Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#101 - 2012-12-17 04:06:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyacia Cyric'ai
Why are so many people asking for a slow and overtanked ship that can use medium weapons? Like that wouldn't be easy to kite if it was trying to solo (slow boat with guns packing medium range... lol recipe for failfit). If you give them more speed then you essentially just end up with a Macharial. With a few exceptions, battleships are meant to be flown with support. Seriously this thread to me is like saying "why can't I use dreadnaughts to kill tackler frigs". A battleship is for fleet and needs support. In this role their substantially larger buffer makes them far better than T3 BCs since those can get alphaed very easily and it's often rather clutch to fly them.

The only thing Battleships need is for all the tiers to be balanced in terms of slots/hitpoints/pg/cpu, larger drone bays, higher scan res and for cruise and torps to be fixed. Perhaps enhance the tracking of those Dual "insert name of medium weapon" guns as well although I imagine their shorter range will still probably limit them to a small selection of fast hulls like the tempest/phoon to be viable, otherwise again, you're just asking to get kited.

Battleships (or the majority of them) should be about EHP, Damage and Damage Projection. Everything else should be left for smaller ships to support them.
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
#102 - 2012-12-17 16:00:25 UTC
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Why are so many people asking for a slow and overtanked ship that can use medium weapons? Like that wouldn't be easy to kite if it was trying to solo (slow boat with guns packing medium range... lol recipe for failfit). If you give them more speed then you essentially just end up with a Macharial. With a few exceptions, battleships are meant to be flown with support. Seriously this thread to me is like saying "why can't I use dreadnaughts to kill tackler frigs". A battleship is for fleet and needs support. In this role their substantially larger buffer makes them far better than T3 BCs since those can get alphaed very easily and it's often rather clutch to fly them.

The only thing Battleships need is for all the tiers to be balanced in terms of slots/hitpoints/pg/cpu, larger drone bays, higher scan res and for cruise and torps to be fixed. Perhaps enhance the tracking of those Dual "insert name of medium weapon" guns as well although I imagine their shorter range will still probably limit them to a small selection of fast hulls like the tempest/phoon to be viable, otherwise again, you're just asking to get kited.

Battleships (or the majority of them) should be about EHP, Damage and Damage Projection. Everything else should be left for smaller ships to support them.



this. high dps, high ehp , low mobility. but, like many others said: small ships and even gangs of several ships should hava a real real hard time to break the tank of a BS. maybe something like a damage multiplier that takes into account the size of the one shooting and the size of target he´s shooting at ?
of course you have that in total ehp but still:
the logic goes like this:
how many mosquito´s do you need to kill an elephant ?
frigs = mosquitos
their damage output should be ignorable by larger ships. maybe the BS as the largest subcap should be able to get killed by them, but a reasonable force should be needed.
an elephant, the other way round, is guaranteed to kill a mosquito , if he ever stands a chance to hit it...

the multiplier equals out if the aggressor and target size is equal.

done.

"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn´t wanna listen, talks the most"
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
#103 - 2012-12-17 16:03:23 UTC
oh and while you are at it: why is it that gallente is the drone race but every other race uses drones as well ?
give them drones a real meaning in fleet and small gang pvp, especially sentries and large drones.

a drone boat BS should be abe to put out as much dps as other BS´s do. and be of use.

"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn´t wanna listen, talks the most"
Ken 1138
State War Academy
Caldari State
#104 - 2012-12-18 19:17:58 UTC
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Why are so many people asking for a slow and overtanked ship that can use medium weapons? Like that wouldn't be easy to kite if it was trying to solo (slow boat with guns packing medium range... lol recipe for failfit). If you give them more speed then you essentially just end up with a Macharial. With a few exceptions, battleships are meant to be flown with support. Seriously this thread to me is like saying "why can't I use dreadnaughts to kill tackler frigs". A battleship is for fleet and needs support. In this role their substantially larger buffer makes them far better than T3 BCs since those can get alphaed very easily and it's often rather clutch to fly them.

The only thing Battleships need is for all the tiers to be balanced in terms of slots/hitpoints/pg/cpu, larger drone bays, higher scan res and for cruise and torps to be fixed. Perhaps enhance the tracking of those Dual "insert name of medium weapon" guns as well although I imagine their shorter range will still probably limit them to a small selection of fast hulls like the tempest/phoon to be viable, otherwise again, you're just asking to get kited.

Battleships (or the majority of them) should be about EHP, Damage and Damage Projection. Everything else should be left for smaller ships to support them.


You make a great point with upping all the stats and weapons of the battleships. However you from what you've said, you go right back to square one. The issue has been brought up by myself and many others in this thread, the class needs to be reworked not just upped in stats. Of all ship types in eve that NEED support at all times dread, carriers, supercarriers are among them, but that is expected by design (which works).

It's been settled that many of us don't want a Dread level battleship. Despite being slow, bringing a Battleship to say a T3 gang shouldn't be laughed at. It should be considered bringing your a-game to the gang and have your battleship crack out 1500+ dps without breaking a sweat. I payed close attention how the class was used in the last alliance tournament and often after "first blood" they became 100000 ton dead weights which is a shame.

I would like to know if any Devs have looked over it this thread, you guys are always looking for proper input in about the game. I'm curious of what you guys think of what has been said so far. (yes even if you think it's crap) Roll
Qolde
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#105 - 2012-12-19 06:47:44 UTC
As an avid fan of flying battleships, I have to say that there aren't many things wrong with battleships in the current incarnation of the game. The biggest problem will be fixed, with tiericide. The phoon, geddon, apoc, thron, just need another midslot. The domi needs another hislot, and the rest of the tier 1 and 2's need lowslots. They'll need cpu/pg to match their new slots, and they'll definitely need their bonuses looked at. Besides that, the only thing that could really be done is more of an abundance of faction/deadspace mods. You can get some crazy **** in EFT with high meta mods, they just can't be fielded economically. For instance, the officer scrams and webs. Those should be regular BS mods, their pg and cpu usage seems balanced.

I started with the phoon, and i thought it was slow as ****. Then i flew an apoc. I don't know how people deal with those align times. That would be a nice change imo. Also, i wonder what it would be like if they were interdiction nullified by default, they have enough problems with being maneuverability. Twisted

If someone craps in your sandbox: 1. Light it on fire 2. Grab your shovel 3. Throw it back at them.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#106 - 2012-12-19 06:58:24 UTC
Qolde, once upon a time, Tech two mods were expensive and rare, most ships were fit with meta modules. there were posts like yours about how certain modules needed to be more abundant. they became more abundant. now you sell them for 20k isk without even thinking about it. this is called power creep.

You wouldnt think that your eft numbers were so great when you had everyone and their alts in ships like that. really jsut lok at your t2 fit ships, once those were crazy numbers too.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Makavi Astro
State War Academy
Caldari State
#107 - 2012-12-19 09:16:54 UTC
Here, let's thing about it logically:
Battleships have 2-6 meter thick armor.
Frigates have 0.4-0.8 meter thick armor
Thus, small frigate guns should have lowered penetratability towards thicker armor, and battleships should have a lot of damage on frigates but since they have low tracking, it compensates everything.
That way frigates will be effective against frigates, battleships against battleships, and so on.
Bombers should stay though, they are amazing :D

Summary: I suggest adding armor thickness into the "damage received" formula

Smaller the gun, lesser effectiveness against thicker armor.
Right now in EVE it is little different, you can go through battleship's armor if you have enough small rocks (<--- bad!)
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#108 - 2012-12-19 13:27:55 UTC
Makavi Astro wrote:
Here, let's thing about it logically:
Battleships have 2-6 meter thick armor.
Frigates have 0.4-0.8 meter thick armor
Thus, small frigate guns should have lowered penetratability towards thicker armor, and battleships should have a lot of damage on frigates but since they have low tracking, it compensates everything.
That way frigates will be effective against frigates, battleships against battleships, and so on.
Bombers should stay though, they are amazing :D

Summary: I suggest adding armor thickness into the "damage received" formula

Smaller the gun, lesser effectiveness against thicker armor.
Right now in EVE it is little different, you can go through battleship's armor if you have enough small rocks (<--- bad!)


What are you basing that on?

And your are talkign about introducing mitigation through an armor stat (like every MMO has). It's not really in the vein of eve...
turmajin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2012-12-19 17:19:09 UTC
Really the only thing thats needed for BSs,is a scaling up of their EHP.To reflect the fact they would have thicker armour,and are ment to brawl in fleets,If the EHP was increased across the board by 50%.Historically that would be about right.Speed doesnt need to change,but tracking should be better but not by a big margin say 10-12%,so they at least have a chance of hitting a frigate/destroyer,and maybe a tad extra drone bay,Drones should be a BSs primary defence against frigates/destoyers.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#110 - 2012-12-19 19:23:58 UTC
turmajin wrote:
Really the only thing thats needed for BSs,is a scaling up of their EHP.To reflect the fact they would have thicker armour,and are ment to brawl in fleets,If the EHP was increased across the board by 50%.Historically that would be about right.Speed doesnt need to change,but tracking should be better but not by a big margin say 10-12%,so they at least have a chance of hitting a frigate/destroyer,and maybe a tad extra drone bay,Drones should be a BSs primary defence against frigates/destoyers.


Going to expand upon this...

As you've stated what's needed for BS is a scaling of their ehp. As you also stated this is to reflect the fact that they are intended to brawl in fleets. Currently to brawl effectively in fleets you're going to need logi, and currently BS are some of the worst recipients of logi in the game. They have standard t1 resistances (not counting abaddon) and have a huge sig. Hacs that combine significantly better resistances, faster speeds, and smaller sigs tank much better in these fleet situations. I'd suggest that ALL BS, of all Types receive an increase to their shield and armor resistances by 10-15% across the board, simply adding more hit points will not address the issue with these ships in stagnated fleet fights.
Qolde
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#111 - 2012-12-19 21:43:01 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Qolde, once upon a time, Tech two mods were expensive and rare, most ships were fit with meta modules. there were posts like yours about how certain modules needed to be more abundant. they became more abundant. now you sell them for 20k isk without even thinking about it. this is called power creep.

You wouldnt think that your eft numbers were so great when you had everyone and their alts in ships like that. really jsut lok at your t2 fit ships, once those were crazy numbers too.


Fair enough. I feel the power already crept with T3 cruisers, and tier3 BC's. The high meta mods wouldn't really change things too much, I've already run into Garmon flying a deadspace fit vindi, and fought a tribal tempest with tobias guns on the test server. One thing that bugs me is the domination shield hardeners. they're only good for cap usage, but with less resists than t2 makes that worthless in real world situations. There's more a problem with dumb mods than there are with dumb ships. They stealth nerfed syndicate plates when they made federation navy plates. The target spectrum breaker comes prenerfed. The MJD was prenerfed. Black ops, and marauders, still one trick ponies. No point in using officer guns on 3/4 races because you can't use t2 ammo with them. There's power creep, but since every new ship is so perfectly designed to fit what we want to do, you have to unobsoletize (yeah, i made that word up) the old stuff eventually.

If someone craps in your sandbox: 1. Light it on fire 2. Grab your shovel 3. Throw it back at them.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#112 - 2012-12-19 21:52:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Arronicus
Not only is this post in the wrong section of the forums (should be in suggestions and ideas), but it is completely ignorant of dev blogs less than a month old (Dev Blog mentioning battleship rebalancing coming up) which specifically state that battleships are in line for a rebalance which is projected to happen ~winter 2013

You're welcome. Now let's all stop posting in an ignorance thread.
Qolde
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2012-12-20 01:36:53 UTC
I'm pretty sure it's ok to brainstorm on an idea before clogging up F&I with yet another thread with one half baked suggestion. We know the rebalance is coming. We're in the ships and modules subsection of the forums, talking about the ships and modules.

I feel that battleships in their current incarnation haven't even reached their true potential, due to the unavailability and inaccessibility of certain mods. What's the point of having a battleship mod be so rare that it's isk value makes it virtually unusable. The ships you fit them on are too weak to trust the mod to it. You could trade the mods for 2 dreads, and you want me to put it on a brick that will be hotdropped and primaried no matter what else is in the gang? There's no deadspace equivalent for some of these mods, so there's no way to compete with the few people who live where officer's spawn most.

If someone craps in your sandbox: 1. Light it on fire 2. Grab your shovel 3. Throw it back at them.
Jeyson Vicious
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2012-12-20 04:23:13 UTC
Amen brotha....

Just read initial post but the soft spot in my EVE Heart is my pet Hyperion that have spent gawd awful amounts of ISK on to equip with the best of the best of the best. Even still it wouldn't hold up to much of anything and has issues with simple sites I scan down.

EVE is a strategic cruiser world.
Jeyson Vicious
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2012-12-20 04:26:41 UTC
Shanara As wrote:
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Why are so many people asking for a slow and overtanked ship that can use medium weapons? Like that wouldn't be easy to kite if it was trying to solo (slow boat with guns packing medium range... lol recipe for failfit). If you give them more speed then you essentially just end up with a Macharial. With a few exceptions, battleships are meant to be flown with support. Seriously this thread to me is like saying "why can't I use dreadnaughts to kill tackler frigs". A battleship is for fleet and needs support. In this role their substantially larger buffer makes them far better than T3 BCs since those can get alphaed very easily and it's often rather clutch to fly them.

The only thing Battleships need is for all the tiers to be balanced in terms of slots/hitpoints/pg/cpu, larger drone bays, higher scan res and for cruise and torps to be fixed. Perhaps enhance the tracking of those Dual "insert name of medium weapon" guns as well although I imagine their shorter range will still probably limit them to a small selection of fast hulls like the tempest/phoon to be viable, otherwise again, you're just asking to get kited.

Battleships (or the majority of them) should be about EHP, Damage and Damage Projection. Everything else should be left for smaller ships to support them.



this. high dps, high ehp , low mobility. but, like many others said: small ships and even gangs of several ships should hava a real real hard time to break the tank of a BS. maybe something like a damage multiplier that takes into account the size of the one shooting and the size of target he´s shooting at ?
of course you have that in total ehp but still:
the logic goes like this:
how many mosquito´s do you need to kill an elephant ?
frigs = mosquitos
their damage output should be ignorable by larger ships. maybe the BS as the largest subcap should be able to get killed by them, but a reasonable force should be needed.
an elephant, the other way round, is guaranteed to kill a mosquito , if he ever stands a chance to hit it...

the multiplier equals out if the aggressor and target size is equal.

done.



Reading further, not a week ago I got caught at a gate camp by three people in my travel fit Hyperion (x3 armor repairers and 4 small hybrid turrets, plus drones, for CQB. I got tore up before I could hardly get going).
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#116 - 2012-12-20 09:50:56 UTC
what the hell are you doing with small turrets on a hyperion?

Is that so you can fit two heavy cap boosters? cause three large armor reps will cap you out pretty quick by themselves.

I dont think that a fail fitting like that qualifies as a reason that battleships need to be rebalanced.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Jeyson Vicious
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2012-12-20 15:35:40 UTC
If I am traveling then I put on some small hybrids so that I can engage a target that's usually 12 - 18km away.
Noisrevbus
#118 - 2012-12-20 16:19:59 UTC
Paikis wrote:
There needs to be a good reason to use a battleship, and currently there just isn't one. A battleship at current is just a really expensive, really slow battlecruiser that does a tiny bit more damage.


... and yet they have been the mainstay of most higher echelon fleets at various scales and levels for years.

Perplexing, isn't it? Roll.

Pulsebaddons (Hellcats)
Alphamaels
Railrokhs
Sentrydomis/navdomis (das Boot)

Blapvindis
Neutbhaals
Pulsenavpocs (Foxcats)
Nanopocs
Nanopests
Neut or RR Domis

Activehypes
Activemaels
Nanomachs
Alphamachs (MacHacs)

Those are just the ones at the top off my head, that i have seen, flown myself and remember on a whim.
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#119 - 2012-12-21 09:29:02 UTC
Jeyson Vicious wrote:
Amen brotha....

Just read initial post but the soft spot in my EVE Heart is my pet Hyperion that have spent gawd awful amounts of ISK on to equip with the best of the best of the best. Even still it wouldn't hold up to much of anything and has issues with simple sites I scan down.

EVE is a strategic cruiser world.


Never could you be so wrong. The Hyperion is a beast of a vessel and can dps as much as a Vindicator if you only cook it's guns for a little while. It's the perfect ship for putting on serious amounts of hurt and with the hybrid rebalance should make anyone who squares off against one think twice.

Heavy power

8x Neutron Blaster Cannon II

Medium power
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
1x 100MN Microwarpdrive II
1x Large Shield Extender II
1x Heavy Capacitor Booster II

Low power
1x Damage Control II
3x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
2x Tracking Enhancer II

Rig Slot
3x Large Core Defense Field Extender I

Drones

4x Ogre II

EHP: 102,626

DPS: 1376 DPS [1122.1 Guns 253.4 Drones] Volley: 4865. This is with CDA. For lulz overloaded 1544 DPS.

Speed: 1041 M/S [Overloaded]: 1490 M/S

Capacitor Lasts: 9 Minutes with Cap Booster 800 charges.
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
#120 - 2012-12-21 09:56:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Shanara As
too bad that these kind of threads turn into "show me yours i show you mine"-fitting evaluations.

its not the fitting that is the problem. it´s the fact that shows in almost every game where damage and defense are measured against each other.

take the classic roleplaing game for example: D&D (basic, way bach then).

lets say a giant has 20Hitpoints

a goblin has 2.

lets imagine the goblin attacks the giant (he´s hungry and desperate..)

i mean its a game and all but lets be honest: no way that a single goblin could ever stand a chance to kill a giant on his own.
(mosquito-elephant-scenario).

this is something that is just totally lacking in eve.

just increasing / decreasing dps/ehp will not help because it still does not take into effect the actual "effect" the weapons of small ships will ever have on way larger ships.

or to transport the scenario into more modern pictures: a guy with an AK47 can unload all the shots he want on a tank, he will never stand even a remote chance to damage , nevertheless destroy the tank.

how shall a frigate ever stand a chance to destroy a battleship ?
tackle it ? oh sure. web it ? of course
damp, TD, ecm hell yeah. but seriously damage or destroy it ? c´mon. thats what you need bigger guns for.

if, of course you could fit larger calibres in smaller ships , that would e a totally different scenario....

"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn´t wanna listen, talks the most"