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Harbinger PvE Fit - L3/L4 Mission Running

Author
Vyridus Ancalon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-10-12 06:25:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyridus Ancalon
Hi people.

Have a fit here for a Harbinger doing L3 Missions . Need some advice.

[Harbinger, Harbinger - L3]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Damage Control II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
10MN Afterburner II

Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Multifrequency M
[empty high slot]

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

187.7 DPS

Cap will run out in 7m 46s, which I assume is enough buffer time since I doubt the Rep and AB will be on the entire time.

Turret wise I'm unsure of what to bring to battle. Is Multifrequency sufficient for missions?

A breakdown of the important Gunnery skills I should aim for would also help. I currently planning for:

Controlled Bursts
Medium Energy Turrets
Surgical Strike
Trajectory Analysis

Any serious/constructive criticism will be appreciated.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#2 - 2012-10-12 10:21:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
I'm guessing with those hardeners you're going to be running missions against Guristas? I'd recommend running Amarr missions because those rats are weak to your EM damage. Multifrequency is the best ammo for larger ships, but you'll probably want Radio for frigates.

187 DPS isn't really enough for level 3 missions. In the hardest level 3 missions there will be some rats with very tough tank so I'd recommend getting your DPS to a minimum of 200, preferably 220+ to be comfortable although you could make up some of this damage with drones. You have a good drone bay on Harbinger.

With short range guns and ammo, you should probably look at trying to get a MWD instead of an AB. As long as you're cap stable with your tank, the MWD is fine as you can just use it in short bursts. Personally I'd ditch the Damage Control and take an extra hardener, but that's a matter of preference. This ships should be sufficient for running level 3s, but you will probably want to train some skills for a little more tank and DPS.

Here is a fit I came up with for running level 4s.

Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
[empty high slot]

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

This fit has 500+ DPS tank against Blood Raiders and about 350 DPS on guns with Conflagration, which is just about enough for running level 4s (although it will be slow going).

It's cap stable with dual rep or single rep + MWD, but again you can use the MWD in short bursts and keep you dual rep active. This fit should manage most level 4s reasonable comfortably.

This fit will cost about as much as a T1 Battleship due to the T2 rigs, but it has the advantage of using medium guns (great for killing cruisers and frigates which can be a problem for Battleships). It also has the advantage of allowing you to focus your training in core skills and medium sized ships instead of spreading your training thin by rushing ahead to large ships, although it will need 3-4 months of training to train this fit if you're a new player, so you may want a battleship instead.
Kosetzu
Everything For Efficiency
WE FORM BL0B
#3 - 2012-10-12 10:50:57 UTC
I find just passive tanking it is enough almost all the time. You really don't need anything near 500 dps tank in a lvl 3, that's what they recommend for lvl 4's!

[Harbinger, PvE]

Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

10MN Afterburner II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M/ Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M/ Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M/ Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M/ Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M/ Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M/ Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M/ Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Medium Nosferatu II/Other handy mod (Salvager/Tractor Beam/Whatever)
Only reason I put a nos in there is because of neuting, but that is so rare in lvl 3's anyways...

Rigs/Drones to taste
( I find having 1 web drone and 4 combat handy, no need for light drones then. Medium web drone+4 medium combat drones.)

Gives you 414 dps with Scorch, or 520 with Imperial Navy Multifrequency. No real reason not to use faction ammo when you use lasers. If you cannot use T2 lasers (in which case get them asap) you can use Radio instead of Scorch, but you'll loose damage that way.

The tank is "only" 48.7 HP/s, but you should be killing most of them before they get in range or do much damage anyways.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#4 - 2012-10-12 10:54:46 UTC
Kosetzu wrote:
I find just passive tanking it is enough almost all the time. You really don't need anything near 500 dps tank in a lvl 3, that's what they recommend for lvl 4's!


Riot Girl wrote:
Here is a fit I came up with for running level 4s.


:3
Vyridus Ancalon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-10-12 14:29:24 UTC
Thanks for the replies people.

I'm still 28 days away from T2 Energy Turrets and Scorch Crystals so I'll settle for T1 at the moment.

I'm only sitting at 1.8M SP so my skills don't allow the best possible fit/cap. I have all cap/cpu/grid skills only at IV.

@RiotGirl

I'll be running L3 missions exclusively in Amarr Space, so Sanshas and Bloods.

I modified the build I posted to use Imperial Navy Multifrequency M and I now have a DPS of 215. I hope that's sufficient.

A few questions though (I'm still a month old and new to all this):

1. Any reason the Medium Modulated Pulse is chosen over the Heavy Versions? How about the other versions like Dual?

2. With my fit I have a Armor Tank of 70-81 eHP/s. Is that enough to tank Amarr Space L3 NPCs? Replacing Damage Control II for another Med Rep II causes my cap to run out at the 2.5min mark.

3. Are Experimental ABs better than their normal counterparts?
Kosetzu
Everything For Efficiency
WE FORM BL0B
#6 - 2012-10-12 15:07:40 UTC
Vyridus Ancalon wrote:
Thanks for the replies people.

I'm still 28 days away from T2 Energy Turrets and Scorch Crystals so I'll settle for T1 at the moment.

Fair enough, but at least some people say beams are better until you get T2 for Scorch, but that is preference I'd say.

Vyridus Ancalon wrote:
I'm only sitting at 1.8M SP so my skills don't allow the best possible fit/cap. I have all cap/cpu/grid skills only at IV.
Only thing I can recommend is concentrate on what you want to skill into, there's loads of skills that seem useful when you start out. Try to get the important ones to 3-4 and specialize in what you want.

Vyridus Ancalon wrote:
Are Experimental ABs better than their normal counterparts?

They are better than the T1 counterparts yes, as with all meta items. It's slightly better speed with the T2 though.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#7 - 2012-10-12 15:27:59 UTC
Vyridus Ancalon wrote:
I'm still 28 days away from T2 Energy Turrets and Scorch Crystals so I'll settle for T1 at the moment.


Then you should be using beams. Pulses without Scorch aren't going to have the range you need to hit rats for decent damage.

Vyridus Ancalon wrote:
I modified the build I posted to use Imperial Navy Multifrequency M and I now have a DPS of 215. I hope that's sufficient.


It will get you through -- but it points towards lots of low/missing skills as well.

This is something along the lines of what I'd recommend for starting out:

[Harbinger, L3 beams low skill]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Optical Tracking Computer I, Optimal Range Script
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Heavy Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
[empty high slot]

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

It's basically a T1 version of what I'd recommend in general. With my skills that's pumping 425 DPS before drones at 17+12 with IN multi -- which is pretty respectable. Tank is a bit on the light side; you may want to swap to lower damage longer range crystals like IN ultraviolet in order to better keep range on rats.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#8 - 2012-10-12 15:33:04 UTC
Vyridus Ancalon wrote:
1. Any reason the Medium Modulated Pulse is chosen over the Heavy Versions? How about the other versions like Dual?

You can't fit 7 heavy guns without handicapping yourself in another area. 6 heavy guns would give you less damage than 7 mediums.

Quote:
2. With my fit I have a Armor Tank of 70-81 eHP/s. Is that enough to tank Amarr Space L3 NPCs? Replacing Damage Control II for another Med Rep II causes my cap to run out at the 2.5min mark.

Assuming you have your damage profile set up properly, I'd say it's probably not. If you're just looking at uniform damage then it might be just enough but you should still be wary of scramblers in case you need to warp out. Personally I wouldn't be confident with that little tank. Also you seem to have some severe cap issues. Check the market and read the descriptions of all the skill books to make sure you're not missing anything important. When you're new, it's surprising how much you can miss out on just by not being aware what skills are available to you. Alternatively, you can use the character editor in EFT and mess around until you're happy with the numbers.

Quote:
3. Are Experimental ABs better than their normal counterparts?

Yes, they are slightly faster but as I said before, I'd strongly recommend using a MWD.
Jose Black
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2012-10-12 15:48:43 UTC
You don't seem to factor in any drones. I know you're far from it skill-wise, but a flight of well trained medium scout drones would give you 150dps on their own.

A fit I put together once was as follows:

[Harbinger, PVE T1]

Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Experimental 10MN Afterburner I

Heavy Anode Particle Stream I, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet M
Heavy Anode Particle Stream I, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet M
Heavy Anode Particle Stream I, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet M
Heavy Anode Particle Stream I, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet M
Heavy Anode Particle Stream I, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet M
Heavy Anode Particle Stream I, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet M
Heavy Anode Particle Stream I, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet M
Small Tractor Beam I

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Hammerhead II x5

Downgrade to tech 1 modules where needed, but try to get meta 4.

I don't know if it will fit with your fitting skills regarding cpu and powergrid tho.

As is and with plenty skilling it deals 280 dps at 25km (430 including drones) and is cap stable.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#10 - 2012-10-12 17:51:58 UTC
My Harby that I used right up to, and including a couple of L4's. I used Beams at the time and it was great, although you can probably switch them to pulse easily enough.

Energized Kinetic Membrane II
Energized Explosive Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
" " " " II
" " " " II
Medium Armor Repairer II


F-B10 Nominal Capacitor Regenerator
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
10MN Afterburner

Heavy Beam Laser II
Heavy Beam Laser II
Heavy Beam Laser II
Heavy Beam Laser II
Heavy Beam Laser II
Heavy Beam Laser II
Heavy Beam Laser II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I


It was cheap to fit, gave me a decent omni tank (68% thermal was the low, everything else was 74% or higher, cap stable at around 35%.

I never had a problem in any L3's. I did ok in some of the L4's, but I will admit I foolishly tried my first 'When Worlds Collide" in this fit I was handed my happy ass. lol

Not sure if it would be considered an Optimal fit, but I loved that I never had to change anything if resistances changed, etc.

With the beams, I believe I was hitting optimal at 35-40k (been a while, going off of memory).

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly

Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-10-12 20:08:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Mavnas
Er... so the forum seems to have eaten my post, but I was going to say if you're doing that little damage and unable to use Scorch to get better range, this might not be the best use of your time.

You will spend ages closing the gaps to deal poor damage to your targets. At least with beams you'd be applying your damage all the time.
Kosetzu
Everything For Efficiency
WE FORM BL0B
#12 - 2012-10-12 20:20:41 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Kosetzu wrote:
I find just passive tanking it is enough almost all the time. You really don't need anything near 500 dps tank in a lvl 3, that's what they recommend for lvl 4's!


Riot Girl wrote:
Here is a fit I came up with for running level 4s.


:3


I didn't at first notice the level 4 part Oops, but I would say it's not very good to run lvl 4's with the Amarr BCs to begin with... Only the drake can somewhat do that imo, albeit very.

I don't see why you would fly anything from the Amarr line of ships except BS and some T2 ships and the Legion for lvl 4's... It would either be too slow at running them, or completely unable to break the tanks of some ships (1M+ bountys come to mind).
Vyridus Ancalon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-10-13 04:25:03 UTC
I've decided its just not worth the time piloting a Harbinger since it's probably gonna end up half-assed.

So I'll settle for the standard progression from L2-4s: Maller -> Harbinger -> Apoc, giving me ample time to train up my skills for the more advanced ships.

[Maller, Maller - L2]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Extruded Heat Sink I
Extruded Heat Sink I
Damage Control II
Prototype Armor EM Hardener I
Prototype Armor Thermic Hardener I

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger I
10MN Afterburner II

Focused Medium Beam Laser I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Beam Laser I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Beam Laser I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Beam Laser I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Beam Laser I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
[empty high slot]

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

DPS without Drones: 112
eHP: 12,512
Cap: 58s

What do you guys think about this for L2 Mission Running?
Lili Lu
#14 - 2012-10-13 04:51:40 UTC
Do not do a level 4 in a Harbinger. It may be able to do a couple of them against the right rats, but it will just die in most level 4s. It does not have a sufficient tank. Or if you do construct a sufficient tank you will not do sufficient damage. Just do level 3s til you have BS skills and enough money for a BS.

Any of the amarr BSs are capable of doing level 4s against BR or Sansha. I've run them in anything from a Dual Heavy Beam Geddon to a Tachyon Baddon. It's really just personal choice which BS you want to use.
Marcus Gideon
Triglavian Assembly
#15 - 2012-10-13 06:04:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Gideon
I'm noticing a pattern from all the suggested fits...

They all seem to be really Cap hungry. And everyone is trying to overcome that hunger, by loading up on CCC rigs, and Rechargers.

First off, as things die, the amount of damage you'll have to tank goes down. Plus, its pretty easy to control the waves if you look up the missions first and avoid killing triggers too soon.

That being said, you don't need to account for your guns firing constantly, or your repper running constantly either. Meaning, so long as there is some extra recharge in there, your Cap will maintain for the duration of a mission.

Also, everyone seems to forget, that a medium or large Battery will have a greater impact on most ships BC or smaller. Instead of stocking up on Rechargers, toss on a Battery first, and round it out with Rechargers after (if you even need).

[Harbinger, T1 Beams]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II

10MN Afterburner II
Tracking Computer II
Stasis Webifier II
Large Peroxide Capacitor Power Cell

Heavy Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
[empty high slot]

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x5

Give this a shot...
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#16 - 2012-10-13 06:48:15 UTC
New player + Low Skills + Beam Lasers + Afterburner = You wont be hitting anything.

Afterburners are not required in missions, get rid of it.
Kosetzu
Everything For Efficiency
WE FORM BL0B
#17 - 2012-10-13 12:04:34 UTC
Marcus Gideon wrote:
I'm noticing a pattern from all the suggested fits...

They all seem to be really Cap hungry. And everyone is trying to overcome that hunger, by loading up on CCC rigs, and Rechargers.
1. The reason we toss out cap stable fits is it probably won't be cap stable with low skills.
2. Learning the ropes with a cap-stable ship can be easier.
3. Why on earth are you adding a trimark rig to an active tanked ship? Would be better to have either an active tanking rig or something else.
4. You use two rig slots just for fitting... That seems an awful waste. You should be able to drop the CPU rig, downgrade the web etc to meta 4, they don't need to be T2. On another side using webs with a beam setup seems a bit strange to me... You'll kill almost all of them before they get in range of it if you fly it properly.

Paikis wrote:
New player + Low Skills + Beam Lasers + Afterburner = You wont be hitting anything.

Afterburners are not required in missions, get rid of it.
Having an afterburner is more to get around, control range etc. Nobody forces you to have it active constantly. I don't have zomg-good gunnery skills even though I've played for over a year, and I don't have any problems whatsoever with guns tracking with AB on constantly. Managing transversal and range is something you learn.
Charis Perceptum
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-10-13 18:04:45 UTC
If you are that worried about tank and cap stability, switch from the Harby to a Prophecy. Even with BC to level 4, the 20% resistance bonus makes up for the lack of DPS. May take a few minutes more to run a mission but survivability equally increases. If you want speed your better off moving to pulse lasers, and before the haters start up, range becomes irrelevant if you can keep up or out speed the target. Used this platform as a stepping stone, before I moved into command ships.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#19 - 2012-10-13 18:30:09 UTC
Charis Perceptum wrote:
If you are that worried about tank and cap stability, switch from the Harby to a Prophecy. Even with BC to level 4, the 20% resistance bonus makes up for the lack of DPS. May take a few minutes more to run a mission but survivability equally increases. If you want speed your better off moving to pulse lasers, and before the haters start up, range becomes irrelevant if you can keep up or out speed the target. Used this platform as a stepping stone, before I moved into command ships.


This is... interesting advice.

The Prophecy is a problematic ship. Its lack of damage is part of the picture, but when considering mission fits for new players there's actually a larger issue: tight fittings. Wedging on a rack of heavy beams and a MAR means you literally have no room for anything else.

And unfortunately range is not irrelevant. While it's true that you can manage individual targets with a prop mod, the time between targets starts to slowly kill your completion time (or if we decide completion time isn't relevant when starting L3s -- which isn't unreasonably -- time before eliminating significant incoming damage). The longer you have to tank full damage, the more your ship is at risk. Doubly so if you don't have ranged weapons that can plink things off the edges. So no, I wouldn't consider just being able to keep up sufficient to justify pulses. It's one thing on relatively quick hulls with good tracking and decent damage projection -- a Sleipnir for instance, or even a Hurricane -- but that isn't where Amarr ships shine.
Alexander Suvarov
Lonercorp
#20 - 2012-10-14 03:30:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander Suvarov
I don't see where using pulse lasers in lvl 3 missions is wrong. On my main character, I flew with pulses and an AB fitted. Most of the enemies would fly towards me, allowing me to rake them down as they approached, leaving just a few long range npcs left, whom I would chase down with the AB. I don't believe it to be ideal, but saying it does not work is rubbish.
On a side note, It is better I find to sit still when exchanging all that fire to ensure as much damage as possible. Also, drones mean a world of difference when dealing with the interceptors and ships that manage to stay out of range (we are starting to talk skill intensive, but when I started out on my main in 2006, beam lasers couldn't hit anything, and my gunnery skills were lacking).
Edit: Either way, beams or pulse, sit still, once aggroed and shoot em down as they come in, then use drones on the frigates
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