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Dev blog: Stay on Target!

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Nebula Terron
Wolf's in Sheep's Clothing
#341 - 2012-10-11 07:52:02 UTC
Give those 3 bars three different colours already.

Eve Online Forums: You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.

Ana Fox
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#342 - 2012-10-11 07:57:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ana Fox
With all respect ,but I am far from liking this .

Why you need to change something that was fine ?Circles are more harder to look than squares ,bars on circles even more.

Pleas stop for love of god making UI changes like we are playing Hell Kitty online.EvE is game of numbers and calculation,so UI need to be simple and effective with information ,not blaped nice to see icons.

Also why you constantly avoid giving players option to customize their UI?Also it would be nice if players can choose UI templates so you dont force us to use just your choices.

I respect all hard work you people are doing ,but this just look for me terrible .It is also sad that circles that you removed as bad thing ,you now are now taking back as cool idea.

Give us choices dont force us to do any ,let us have sandbox in UIs too.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#343 - 2012-10-11 08:00:15 UTC
If you are going to use varying opacity as an indicator, please be sure to test it against ALL possible background conditions in the game, to ensure that it is always visible and easy to read.

The transparent capacitor display is still nearly impossible to read against bright objects, such as a sun. This is simply bad UI design.
Adoro
Below the Asteroids Ltd.
#344 - 2012-10-11 08:07:45 UTC
No No No CCP. I like it the way it is. (Except the targeting range bracket, thats good stuff actually)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#345 - 2012-10-11 08:33:32 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
I have the photoshop skills of a stoned rabid wombat, but after reading the thread and seeing some of the mockups people have come up with, I cribbed one of them to add a couple of features that address some of the major concerns:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yczdff38xs99gff/TreborMockup.png

I took the circular, multicolored arrowed indicators (excellent cues) and added two additional features while maintaining a very compact layout:
It's an interesting variation, but the thing that really strikes me when looking at them is that I think we need to realise that we're talking about two different elements at once here and that we should probably consider separating them.

On the one hand, we have the “lock row” — the list of ships that we have locked and which we intend to do something to — and on the other hand, we have the free-floating brackets. Right now, it looks like the two are meant to be largely the same, which is what's causing the repeated mention of duplication and redundant information. It also means a lot more screen clutter. Neither of those are good things.

Yes, the brackets will have an additional function: to display the state information (locking, incoming damage, in range etc.), but I'm beginning to wonder if it's really a good idea to try to squeeze even more information in there, especially since it's already more readily available elsewhere.

In essence, the lock row can probably easily be loaded down with the kind of extra information Trebor shows here, but the brackets need to be a lot cleaner and neater — the mockups in the blog are already quite bloated. Someone showed a version where the damage information was just a single pixel wide, and that's probably a better route to go: it's not really there to show the damage (you look at the lock row for that), but to identify which ship is which — “hmm, 50% into armour, must be target #3 in my row”. Maybe the brackets should show completely different information instead — stuff that makes more sense showing on the free-floating overlay.

On the other hand, since I immediately start thinking about the classic combat flightsim hud, this can get pretty messy too, showing things like a lock-on diamond, a range circle, a closing speed tick, an approach-vector caret etc. But then, it's rarely a good idea to trigger that part of my brain… P
CCP Prism X
C C P
C C P Alliance
#346 - 2012-10-11 08:34:03 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Prism X
So... WHICH ONE IS SHIELD?!!

Seriously, why don't I know this yet!?! Stop ignoring me just because I'm asking the difficult questions nobody else wants to ask!

CCP Prism X

Programmer on Team Gridlock & Expert Ranter
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#347 - 2012-10-11 08:40:24 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
CCP Prism X wrote:
So... WHICH ONE ONE SHIELD?!!

Seriously, why don't I know this yet!?! Stop ignoring me just because I'm asking the difficult questions nobody else wants to ask!


Since I fly armour shield visula is always red anyways.. it is the one that I don't look at but HEAR because it is the buffer that goes beep & reminds me to click on need armour reps LolShocked
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
BobFromMarketing
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#348 - 2012-10-11 08:41:42 UTC
Why the hell are so many of you whining about being able to tell which bar is armor/shield/hull? Just as a person who has never played Eve has no ******* idea which of the stacked bars represents each, you won't be able to tell at a glance until you've actually used them a bit. Get over it, this change isn't bad

The way you people gnash your teeth you would think CCP declared the bars would randomly switch places every 15 seconds.
Myrkala
Royal Robot Ponies
#349 - 2012-10-11 08:46:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Myrkala
CCP Prism X wrote:
So... WHICH ONE ONE SHIELD?!!

Seriously, why don't I know this yet!?! Stop ignoring me just because I'm asking the difficult questions nobody else wants to ask!


Lets look at the picture and think logically.

On the old one the shields are full.

Only arc with no red on it is the top right arc. There's your shield.

It would be logical for the arcs to "deplete" towards the next layer, so we get:


  • Top Right: Shields
  • Bottom: Armor
  • Top Left: Structure



I think however that the following is more intuitive, because of left-to-right reading and "structure" being the lowest layer it should be on the bottom:


  • Top Left: Shields
  • Top Right: Armor
  • Bottom: Structure


The arcs should deplete clockwise towards the next "layer". (Shield -> Armor -> Structure)


Now be a good dev and stop trolling so much! Blink
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#350 - 2012-10-11 08:49:11 UTC
BobFromMarketing wrote:
Why the hell are so many of you whining about being able to tell which bar is armor/shield/hull? Just as a person who has never played Eve has no ******* idea which of the stacked bars represents each, you won't be able to tell at a glance until you've actually used them a bit.
Because there is no hierarchy or apparent structure in the proposed image. With the current setup, you have three bars. You may not know the first time you look at them which one comes first, but there is an apparent order to them — up-down or down-up. With the new circular display, there is no such apparent beginning or end — it's just a circle that ends up where it begins.

Since damage application is not circular and won't come around for another lap, that's not really the appropriate visual language to employ. Having a clear disconnect between the beginning and end communicates the whole idea better.
Alexej
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#351 - 2012-10-11 08:50:08 UTC
I have a feeling that the team responsible for the GUI of EVE doing a terrible job. First the crappy inventory, now this. This new targeting circle looks really awful, why tempering with a part of EVE that works just fine. CCP please hire new employees for the department of GUI!
BobFromMarketing
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#352 - 2012-10-11 08:50:40 UTC
Tippia wrote:
BobFromMarketing wrote:
Why the hell are so many of you whining about being able to tell which bar is armor/shield/hull? Just as a person who has never played Eve has no ******* idea which of the stacked bars represents each, you won't be able to tell at a glance until you've actually used them a bit.
Because there is no hierarchy or apparent structure in the proposed image. With the current setup, you have three bars. You may not know the first time you look at them which one comes first, but there is an apparent order to them — up-down or down-up. With the new circular display, there is no such apparent beginning or end — it's just a circle that ends up where it begins.

Since damage application is not circular and won't come around for another lap, that's not really the appropriate visual language to employ. Having a clear disconnect between the beginning and end communicates the whole idea better.


God forbid you attempt using common sense or *gasp* play Eve for a bit to see which bar is which. Go kill a rat or something. Zero risk AND you get to watch all 3 bars go down sequentially. Are you honestly trying to tell me you can't keep track of the same 3 things you have been keeping track of for years in a slightly different pattern?
Jesspa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#353 - 2012-10-11 08:55:05 UTC
I like what I'm seeing. However, since you're going to the trouble of re-designing the shield/armor/structure indicators around the target's icon in the upper-right corner (and I think what you've come up with is a nice improvement on what we have now), how about having three concentric circles to indicate these, rather than one circle split into three? The outer circle would be shield, the middle circle would be armor, and the inner circle armor.

I think this would more intuitively portray what was happening, especially for new players. It's a simple metaphor to understand - you start off with 'three layers of defence', with your ship at the 'core', and those layers are broken down one at a time as first your shield, then your armor, then your structure being damaged.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#354 - 2012-10-11 08:55:39 UTC
BobFromMarketing wrote:
God forbid you attempt using common sense or *gasp* play Eve for a bit to see which bar is which.
…or you could make it intuitive instead, since that's a far better idea. Why are you so angry that people want it to be more distinct and to communicate the notion of a beginning and end better?

Quote:
Are you honestly trying to tell me you can't keep track of the same 3 things you have been keeping track of for years in a slightly different pattern?
No, I'm trying to tell you that it's better to visually communicate that there's a beginning and an end, rather than a continuous circle.
Creedling
#355 - 2012-10-11 08:56:08 UTC
If the three bars were colour coded this would be a far more intuitive piece of design work.

Also, can't we make those circular indicators a little thinner? They seem a bit chunky at the moment and actually cover up a great deal of the icon artwork - thus obscuring an important indicator!
BobFromMarketing
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#356 - 2012-10-11 09:00:58 UTC
Tippia wrote:
BobFromMarketing wrote:
God forbid you attempt using common sense or *gasp* play Eve for a bit to see which bar is which.
…or you could make it intuitive instead, since that's a far better idea. Why are you so angry that people want it to be more distinct and to communicate the notion of a beginning and end better?

Not angry, just sort of sad people continue to be this dense. You argue that it isn't intuitive because you yourself seem to find a circle "confusing". This may shock you but the bars will always be in the same locations every time you lock something. Just as they are now. So long as you aren't a fish with a 20 second memory I don't see a problem other than a bunch of babies making a big deal about nothing until its in the game.

Quote:

Quote:
Are you honestly trying to tell me you can't keep track of the same 3 things you have been keeping track of for years in a slightly different pattern?
No, I'm trying to tell you that it's better to visually communicate that there's a beginning and an end, rather than a continuous circle.

That sounds rather like a cosmetics opinion. Why don't you just admit that you don't like the cosmetics of it and leave this whole "It's confusing" rubbish out of it then?

Seriously, this would be confusing for all of until I took any shield damage whatsoever. Then it would become familiar and just as mundane as the bars are currently.

tl;dr You're whining about the bars so you can have something to whine about. Not because there's any actual problem.
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#357 - 2012-10-11 09:02:04 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
So... WHICH ONE ONE SHIELD?!!

Seriously, why don't I know this yet!?! Stop ignoring me just because I'm asking the difficult questions nobody else wants to ask!




CCP Troll Best Troll

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#358 - 2012-10-11 09:07:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
BobFromMarketing wrote:
Not angry, just sort of sad people continue to be this dense.
Good news: it has nothing to do with being dense. It has to do with communicating a simple idea: a beginning and an end — something that the current design has and which is lost with the new one.

Quote:
That sounds rather like a cosmetics opinion.
Not really. Go look at the speedometer or fuel gauge in your car. Most likely, they will both be in the form of parts of a circle. Why not the full circle? Because even though you know that if you accelerate beyond 250kph, you won't go back to stand-still, and even if you know that if you run the tank dry, it suddenly won't become full again, it's good visual communication to show that there is a 0-mark and there is a full-mark.

Quote:
Why don't you just admit that you don't like the cosmetics of it and leave this whole "It's confusing" rubbish out of it then?
More good news: you are the one calling it confusing, not me. I'm calling it poorly communicated and saying that there is a simple way to do it better.

Quote:
You're whining about the bars so you can have something to whine about. Not because there's any actual problem.
Incorrect. I'm pointing out a “typo” in their design and proposing the same solution as everyone else who's ever designed something similar has employed… because it's a good solution and it solves the actual problem of not properly communicating the existence of a begging and an end.
BobFromMarketing
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#359 - 2012-10-11 09:08:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:
BobFromMarketing wrote:
Not angry, just sort of sad people continue to be this dense.
Good news: it has nothing to do with being dense. It has to do with communicating a simple idea: a beginning and an end — something that the current design has and which is lost with the new one.

Quote:
That sounds rather like a cosmetics opinion.
Not really. Go look at the speedometer or fuel gauge in your car. Most likely, they will both be in the form of parts of a circle. Why not the full circle? Because even though you know that if you accelerate beyond 250kph, you won't go back to stand-still, and even if you know that if you run the tank dry, it suddenly won't become full again, it's good visual communication to show that there is a 0-mark and there is a full-mark.

Quote:
Why don't you just admit that you don't like the cosmetics of it and leave this whole "It's confusing" rubbish out of it then?
More good news: you are the one calling it confusing, not me.

Quote:
You're whining about the bars so you can have something to whine about. Not because there's any actual problem.
Incorrect. I'm pointing out a “typo” in their design and proposing the same solution as everyone else who's ever designed something similar has employed… because it's a good solution and it solves the actual problem of not properly communicating the existence of a begging and an end.

Nope. But keep trying to throw up walls of words about how your opinion is that of everyone else. It's entertaining.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#360 - 2012-10-11 09:08:40 UTC
Well, already late to the party at 18th page but ...

Anything making more visible data that client already has is good direction but to be honest new blinking for brackets is kinda meh improvement. Ok, I understand it can be just a tip of the iceberg of awesomeness coming next but I would be more happy if you rework overview and for example allow us to undock tabs as separate windows. Or visual indicators of target being in optimal/falloff range. Or any of many UI tweaks listed in F&I subforum sticky.

Anyway, keep up good work.

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